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View Full Version : Club HPDE - Too many run groups! (MCO/BMW CC)



GiJoe_
July 21st, 2015, 12:36am
In the last month I've been to both MCO and BMW CC events (two days just this past weekend). And I have to say I've been disappointed - not with the organization, setup or instructors (who are great) but the number of run groups they are trying to fit in. There seems to be no room to adjust when shit happens, and shit does happen when your on the track we know that. I lost significant track time in both events, to the point where I wonder if its worth the cost, frankly I'd rather pay more to make sure I get the track time then less for a maybe.

At both events the race/chump cars where one of the reason for lost track time with there mech issues - specifically oil spills at both events causing over a full session to be lost. Maybe I'm just in the minority and just bitching but to only get 1hr 10min of track time in a full day seems pretty sad and I question if its worth it. 1morelap events really start to show there value here - I normally get that much time on track for just an evening. I really think I'm going to limit my "full" track days and take part in more 1morelap events.

I do really appreciate the fact that the clubs put these events on so we have the opportunity to get on these great tracks but its a lot of time and money to get up there, prep the cars and find the time (family) to do this that I'd like a decent return on it.

If I'm just bitching tell me but I remember the years of 3 run groups only and those where very worth while, I don't remember nearly as many issues either. I just found out the BMW event at Mt.Tremblant is going to have 5 run groups!! Really not sure if I'm going to sign up for that now.

yanrider
July 21st, 2015, 07:27am
i got nothing to say about your rant/full day thing but, 2hr open lapping evenings have always had more bang for buck. But if something does happen to track or your car that 2hr can fly by. Either way you pay to play, I' been trying to figure out a way to recoupe burnt dollar bills for years. Seems once their black and crispy, there's really nothing that will bring them back.

wing
July 21st, 2015, 07:44am
Double edged sword here.

Mco use to run two groups. 30 on 30 off. Now they run three, I can only assume this is because they want to ensure registration so they listed the price and get more entries.

Although I think they should run 20/20/20 not this weird 30/30/30 thing....

If they have less run groups the price goes up. They were having issues filling the day. S lot of people look at the price $375 for a day? Too much so they don't register, but with three groups they dropped it to 250 which looks better.

1morelap is your best bang for buck, or CMP days they never have broken cars because they are all worth more than your house haha.

Pete
July 21st, 2015, 08:09am
Seems once their black and crispy, there's really nothing that will bring them back.

Yiiiiip.

Jon.0
July 21st, 2015, 08:14am
MCO goes back and forth on 20 minute vs 30 minute run-groups. When I started in 2011, they were doing 20s, then went to 30s in 2013 I think, and then back to 20s. I didn't like the 20 minute sessions, because once you take away the time it takes to switch groups, the out lap, and the in lap, you've got about 10 minutes to play with.

On the topic of red flagged sessions: you're rolling the dice. It happens when it happens, and it's part of lapping. And I agree with you that spending big money and taking the entire day to get out there, only to have it shut down on you sucks. That's why I like Greg's evenings to much. Even if, worst case Ontario, someone manages to black flag the entire 2 hours, you're not out a lot of cash, and you've given up maybe an hour or 2 of work, and then, you're hanging out in cottage country drinking a pop, hanging out with nice folks.

wing
July 21st, 2015, 08:15am
Oh and sandwiches

1Morelap
July 21st, 2015, 08:19am
Someone explained to me recently how the CMP lapping was good value for their dollar, I was confused. But he's right, 7 x 30 min, vs ? ( not exactly sure how much time you get with MCO ) but I keep pushing the MCO because $250 is still a bargain.


It's not an easy gig, cars are going to break, we can't stop that, my open run groups format takes away some of the sting of losing time in your run group.
But run groups allow new drivers to play without worry. It's an expensive track to rent, MCO is run by volunteers and they're doing the best they can, especially when they get advice from all directions.

side note, one of the stoppages at BMW this weekend was a brand new car and I've had new cars pop a motor as well, as an organiser you can never know where it's going to come from.

Jethro
July 21st, 2015, 08:45am
MCO goes back and forth on 20 minute vs 30 minute run-groups. When I started in 2011, they were doing 20s, then went to 30s in 2013 I think, and then back to 20s. I didn't like the 20 minute sessions, because once you take away the time it takes to switch groups, the out lap, and the in lap, you've got about 10 minutes to play with.

On the topic of red flagged sessions: you're rolling the dice. It happens when it happens, and it's part of lapping. And I agree with you that spending big money and taking the entire day to get out there, only to have it shut down on you sucks. That's why I like Greg's evenings to much. Even if, worst case Ontario, someone manages to black flag the entire 2 hours, you're not out a lot of cash, and you've given up maybe an hour or 2 of work, and then, you're hanging out in cottage country drinking a pop, hanging out with nice folks.

Regarding the time to switch groups comment - there are ways to do this more efficiently. We do this at race weekends. The next group is rolling @ pit out when the last group is at 12 or 15. Cars for the next session stage up and are ready to go at the session flip time. Whoever is running the day should communicate with the CCM and advise that you want to flip groups with last car tracking @ 12 or 15. The track should never be cold. You're paying for the full day...

GoP-Demon
July 21st, 2015, 08:49am
Well last year there were kind of 2 very short 1morelaps that I know of. When you take in to account the drive from where you live it can kind of look like a bigger loss of total time vs track time. Its like MCO days are higher risk for problem but problem will take away 10% time away? And 1morelap can be lower risk but a problem can take awake a larger percent of time away.

raggedrabbit
July 21st, 2015, 08:50am
There might be more questionable/chump cars out as the tracks are becoming more mainstream. It really is good for the track/industry overall to grow the client base and public interest.

MCO is trying the stripped out format this year with 3 run groups and no niceties. It appears to be a commercial success as the days are fully loaded. It was more chill before with 2 run groups but then... it wasn't full either.

GoP-Demon
July 21st, 2015, 08:51am
But this year they have had more weekend dates. Last year 3/4 were Fridays or Mondays. I think being on a weekend had a lot to do with sales.

wing
July 21st, 2015, 08:57am
Only weekend is the one coming up

inverted
July 21st, 2015, 09:12am
I see some nice advantages with MCO running 3x30 mins. It makes the day a lot less hectic for instructors, allowing better quality instruction, less fatigue and more time to get some laps in if wanted. The days are cheaper and cost:time on track is similar. I like it a lot.

Plus it adds an extra layer of separation between skill levels.

dbg
July 21st, 2015, 10:40am
1morelap is definitely best bang for buck. The two hour open run group format makes the whole thing very laid back. You drive for a bit, decide you need a break and pull off, and get back on when you're ready. If you think you need to tweak your tire pressures, no problem just pull off and do it - you're not losing time in your run group. Also the passing rules are eminently reasonable - flexible yet safe.

I like the MCO format this year, for several reasons. The advanced run group is open passing, which is fun. It is working well - everyone is aware that it's not aggressive passing. You can do a "race pass" on the inside of a corner as long as you have a good safety margin and don't push it. On the straight you can just blow by a slowpoke. People simply give you the room, and many do point-by... but you don't have to wait for it. The beginners have a nice safe session without any intermediate drivers in the mix, and the intermediate drivers have a session without erratic newbies or slow/nonexistent point-bys. You get a good amount of track time for a great price.

I've done the CMP lapping on occasion. It's pricey, though you do get a lot of track time - 30 min x 7 sessions. If anything you get too much track time; most people are getting tired by the end of the day, and many wisely pack up and go home before the end. They also have the strictest passing rules - only the main straights, only on the inside, and pretty strictly enforced. Even with a full day you can still lose a lot of track time if unlucky - I've had it happen.

As for breakdowns/oil spills/off track/whatever, I don't think it matters what event you're at - they happen at about the same frequency. It's all just a matter of luck. They happen often enough that I don't think I've ever done a full day event without having at least one - usually several. Sometimes you lose a lot of track time, sometimes you don't. It's just a part of it that you have to accept.

I agree with Greg, it's easy to be "racist" about the chump cars or crappy looking cars, but I don't think the statistics would back up people's impressions. Any car can have a failure. A lot depends on how well the car is maintained (I've seen a Corvette lose a wheel - duh! Ever heard of a torque wrench???), but regardless we're putting our cars under a lot of stress and sometimes things break. Also sometimes drivers screw up. Shit happens.

raggedrabbit
July 21st, 2015, 10:44am
... cane waving...

Yep, pretty much.

The attrition at CMP days is really high, less than half of the pack is in the last group, and a bunch guys left at 2pm on the MCO day in June. Maybe you are building up more track stamina? Feed the addiction, y'know ;)

I12XLR8
July 21st, 2015, 12:03pm
1morelap is definitely best bang for buck. The two hour open run group format makes the whole thing very laid back. You drive for a bit, decide you need a break and pull off, and get back on when you're ready. If you think you need to tweak your tire pressures, no problem just pull off and do it - you're not losing time in your run group. Also the passing rules are eminently reasonable - flexible yet safe.

I like the MCO format this year, for several reasons. The advanced run group is open passing, which is fun. It is working well - everyone is aware that it's not aggressive passing. You can do a "race pass" on the inside of a corner as long as you have a good safety margin and don't push it. On the straight you can just blow by a slowpoke. People simply give you the room, and many do point-by... but you don't have to wait for it. The beginners have a nice safe session without any intermediate drivers in the mix, and the intermediate drivers have a session without erratic newbies or slow/nonexistent point-bys. You get a good amount of track time for a great price.

I've done the CMP lapping on occasion. It's pricey, though you do get a lot of track time - 30 min x 7 sessions. If anything you get too much track time; most people are getting tired by the end of the day, and many wisely pack up and go home before the end. They also have the strictest passing rules - only the main straights, only on the inside, and pretty strictly enforced. Even with a full day you can still lose a lot of track time if unlucky - I've had it happen.

As for breakdowns/oil spills/off track/whatever, I don't think it matters what event you're at - they happen at about the same frequency. It's all just a matter of luck. They happen often enough that I don't think I've ever done a full day event without having at least one - usually several. Sometimes you lose a lot of track time, sometimes you don't. It's just a part of it that you have to accept.

I agree with Greg, it's easy to be "racist" about the chump cars or crappy looking cars, but I don't think the statistics would back up people's impressions. Any car can have a failure. A lot depends on how well the car is maintained (I've seen a Corvette lose a wheel - duh! Ever heard of a torque wrench???), but regardless we're putting our cars under a lot of stress and sometimes things break. Also sometimes drivers screw up. Shit happens.

I hadn't noticed before that your avatar is animated. I could watch that for hours.

Wait, did you write something?

dbg
July 21st, 2015, 12:26pm
I type fast. (When not on phone.)

SONNY!

GoP-Demon
July 21st, 2015, 12:29pm
The problem for me is I have to wake up at like 6 something to get to calabogie. The night before I might be too excited and not able to sleep. So by like 3 or 4 I'm kind of sleepy.

Blind
July 21st, 2015, 12:31pm
bang gf early and frequently. sleep like a log.

FPOS
July 21st, 2015, 12:34pm
+1 on the 1 more lap nights. by far the best bang for buck, you theoretically get as much track time as a lapping day (if you and your car could go for 2hrs solid!) and usually its cooling off so its a lot more pleasant. plus, sunset is really nice out that way....

and unless you have a toolbox like me fucking it up with 5 mins to go, usually pretty drama free!

1Morelap
July 21st, 2015, 12:48pm
wish we could run till sunset. imagine starting after 6pm or 7pm. the freedom.

Scruffy
July 21st, 2015, 12:49pm
wish we could run till sunset. imagine starting after 6pm or 7pm. the freedom.

Tesla only lapping... 1morecharge

1Morelap
July 21st, 2015, 12:50pm
#nateslifetime shit just got real.

I12XLR8
July 21st, 2015, 12:51pm
Seriously. Can't we put noise cancelling kick-ass speakers around the track and run all stealth-like

wing
July 21st, 2015, 12:51pm
Yeah 6-9 would be ideal

1Morelap
July 21st, 2015, 12:51pm
Tesla only lapping... 1morecharge

totally sticking that on dougs fleet. and his vette. and probably barb.

Blind
July 21st, 2015, 12:54pm
#nateslifetime shit just got real.
lol

Scruffy
July 21st, 2015, 12:54pm
totally sticking that on dougs fleet. and his vette. and probably barb.

And keep one for the ice race team two years ago (i think?) that ran without an alternator... Changing batteries at pitstops lol.

inverted
July 21st, 2015, 03:36pm
That would be myself and John Hodge lol. Battery swap at every hour.

Jon.0
July 21st, 2015, 06:38pm
That would be myself and John Hodge lol. Battery swap at every hour.
That makes it a hybrid.

pyxen
July 21st, 2015, 10:24pm
Regarding the time to switch groups comment - there are ways to do this more efficiently. We do this at race weekends. The next group is rolling @ pit out when the last group is at 12 or 15. Cars for the next session stage up and are ready to go at the session flip time. Whoever is running the day should communicate with the CCM and advise that you want to flip groups with last car tracking @ 12 or 15. The track should never be cold. You're paying for the full day...

worth quoting. Zooooooooo!??

GoP-Demon
July 22nd, 2015, 08:05am
Good judgment.

petawawarace
July 22nd, 2015, 10:09am
So far the best bang for your buck I've been too have been the combined GT and libre test and tune days. Full day open lapping with a hour lunch break. Last one had 20 cars there. The libre evening races are really good too.
I was at my first 1morelap night a few weeks ago, and it was great, but it gets pretty busy. Honestly don't know how Greg keeps things so organized with that many cars. Truely a great job.

wing
July 22nd, 2015, 11:58am
Except the test and tunes require you to buy $1200 in races.

Mario
July 22nd, 2015, 07:29pm
Yeah 6-9 would be ideal
+ that. Why not?

tellum
July 22nd, 2015, 07:55pm
Only allowed to be loud 7-7

Manimillion
July 22nd, 2015, 08:26pm
Never liked having a "before dark hits" curfew when I was a kid. Because we all know the real fun starts when the sun goes down!

32070

32071

32072

figo
July 22nd, 2015, 08:29pm
Hot brakes, I like this

sb_915
July 25th, 2015, 07:29am
Yes! GP3R is next weekend, with the traditional CTCC night race. Fav of the year for sure!

ZOO
August 2nd, 2015, 07:10am
I read this thread with interest, and I appreciate all of the thoughts. As organizer, you hope to find that magic formula that allows your club to host an event, and to generate a small profit. That profit is rolled back into the club in many ways. For example, having an instructors development day for ongoing professional learning.

MCO has to undertake a significant financial risk to host an event at CMP. A weekend day is $13980, all in. This year, to generate a small surplus we needed 180 paid participants over four events to break even (we had some partnerships to help limit our financial exposure). Our strategy was to lower prices, and to try weekend dates, to increase the numbers. I believe it worked, and we have the most accessible track days at CMP outside 1MoreLap.

One ongoing challenge is that that our participants generally begins with us, and then ultimately graduate to evening events for many of the reasons identified. Our participants are heavily skewed towards new drivers as a result. I think this is a win-win for both clubs in many ways however, and we end up with a symbiotic relationship that helps everyone.

Three run run groups is the best compromise to support that reality. If we don't have three run groups, we don't have enough instructors. And I think new drivers need to move through a graduated process to maintain their comfort level. An open run group is also a treat for our instructors in that they get some track time to play, and not be completely run ragged. Instructors are hard to retain because it is hard work, and busy. We can' afford to pay them, so we need other incentives to retain them.

I dont think 20 minute sessions are problematic around transition times. But a 20 minute session may only be four laps or so for a novice driver, and that isn't ideal for teaching. 30 minute sessions provide a bit of a breather, and again a bit of a flexibility if an instructor has two students.

MCO will be conducting a survey to identify participant preferences and requests for the 2016 season. I am interested to see what people say they want. Whether or not we can accommodate those requests is a matter for our directors to decide, given their fiduciary responsibilities.

I believe our goal is to make events as accessible as possible to the entire community. Cost is a huge barrier to access, and one that we are addressing in any way possible. I'd love to run the events for free, but I would need a sponsor to rent the track for us, so I don't imagine it happening any time soon.

Track closures are inevitable. More cars means more chances of track closures. We can do what we can to minimize that, but no series is immune from it. Some series, however, and I am looking towards the GTA, wouldn't invest the time or money in a safety crew to attend to them in a manner that ensures the ongoing safety of the other participants. Losing a 30 minute session because the safety crew is cleaning up an oil slick is probably a fair trade off for EVERY person if it means that they don't wreck their car and hurt themselves. The weather is also a challenge, and that is beyond all control. Lightning is lightning.

I appreciate all of the comments so far. I trust I have made my case for three run groups. I will state categorically that I would not support five run groups. As an instructor for a club with a five run group over two day model I find it both exhausting, frustrating, and limiting to the development of novice and intermediate drivers.

Rob

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 09:48am
Good points as always Rob. Wow was Saturday challenging as an organizer I'm sure.

I'm sure there will be complaints about lack of track time again, which is out of your control obviously. Hope gijoe wasn't there.

I do wonder WTF is going on with all the crashes though. I understand as you increase the number of participants the chances of incidents increase.

But this time it was novice and intermediate that had problems, the cars with instructors in them?

I'm sure the odds are that I'll have a student that has an off at some point, but I tend to really limit my students speed until I feel confident they are balancing the car properly and are within their ability level.

I had one instructor yesterday ask me why I didn't point by his student immediately... In the novice group... I'll take that one offline.

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 12:24pm
Wow that was a challenging day for instructing. It seemed like every time we started to get into the groove another car would go off track. Then of course the extended lightning shutdown. Yeah stuff happens.

One of my students bailed when the rain got bad. That was a blessing because they both would have wanted to run in the final weather-shortened novice/intermediate session.

Another complication was the GT Challenge race immediately following the MCO event. I can't switch from instructing to suited up and on-track for qualifications in 10 minutes.

My remaining student had really "clicked" in the previous session. He could drive very safely, had figured out Calabogie, and mainly needed work on smoothness. So I headed out with him for 10 minutes and said absolutely nothing, and he did just fine. In fact he was doing a lot of passing. So I told him to let me off and run the rest of the session solo. Then I ran over and caught the last minute of the driver's meeting, and had enough time to get suited up and in line. (Then more lightning...)

The unfortunate thing is that I didn't get a chance to chat with my student after the session. That would have been valuable.

So my one request would have been to swap things around so that Open was the final session.

1Morelap
August 2nd, 2015, 12:31pm
I can't switch from instructing to suited up and on-track for qualifications in 10 minutes. I always tell Pat in advance and he makes it work. either someone takes over the last hour or he schedules 1/2 day.

1Morelap
August 2nd, 2015, 12:38pm
I had 2 students, one in open and his first time at cmp, by 2nd session we were checking off 10ths in each corner. all set to time attack now, that was fun.

The other was the worst case scenario we use when teaching instructors. So glad to have that training. But damn.

Literally turned left cresting 3 on the last session. SOOO happy to fill out the confidential logbook on that one.

good times. see you Sunday :P

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 12:55pm
I always tell Pat in advance and he makes it work. either someone takes over the last hour or he schedules 1/2 day.

Yeah lol, will do that next time.

Your student sounded like a nightmare.

ZOO
August 2nd, 2015, 12:59pm
There were only two incidents. One was an OTA guy, no instructor in the car, but he was being coached by his co-driver. The other one was a novice, who ran out of skill, track, and room before the wall . . . Minor scuffing to the bumper. He stayed for the rest of the day, and was pretty laid back about it - he used to ride bikes, and was used to far more serious consequences when he went off track!

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 02:39pm
Was it the OTA guy who hit the pit wall? That one looked pretty badly damaged.

petawawarace
August 2nd, 2015, 02:41pm
Literally turned left cresting 3 on the last session. SOOO happy to fill out the confidential logbook on that one.

This is why watching youtube or playing a video game on a new track is important. Getting the the line wrong is understandable, but I find it ruins my day when going to a new track, and spending most of the day learning which way to go


Thanks for scaring us first timers for Sunday!!!

1Morelap
August 2nd, 2015, 02:44pm
that's the beauty of west track. so easy to teach/learn on.

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 03:00pm
Lol videos. My guy said he watched a ton of videos. Then he showed up and nearly passed out he was so confused and lost.

ZOO
August 2nd, 2015, 03:09pm
The videos don't capture elevation very well, in my limited experience with them.

petawawarace
August 2nd, 2015, 03:27pm
Obviously it's not perfect, but I found it works better than showing up with zero clue.

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 04:37pm
I really agree about the usefulness of watching videos. When I was a noob I had no problem learning Shanonville, but my first experience at Calabogie was overwhelming. I couldn't keep it straight which corner was what. So I watched a whole bunch of YouTube laps over the course of a couple of weeks. Then I returned to Calabogie and it was night and day. I was signed off by the afternoon.

I'm sure it's even more effective after you've had some experience on the track, but I'm sure if I had done videos beforehand it would have gone a lot better.

iandachef
August 2nd, 2015, 05:51pm
I think everyone is a little different. In my very limited experience I watched videos before but it was confusing to put it all together and figure out the orientation of things until you actually get out there. Unfortunately the timing and my work schedule hasn't lined up for me this summer with the mco days (probably one of the few people who prefers week days), but the one I attended at the end of last summer I thought was perfect. Just enough time in between sessions to get the adrenaline down and reflect on your last run. Not sure how much the formula has changed for this season.

ZOO
August 2nd, 2015, 06:03pm
I think everyone is a little different. In my very limited experience I watched videos before but it was confusing to put it all together and figure out the orientation of things until you actually get out there. Unfortunately the timing and my work schedule hasn't lined up for me this summer with the mco days (probably one of the few people who prefers week days), but the one I attended at the end of last summer I thought was perfect. Just enough time in between sessions to get the adrenaline down and reflect on your last run. Not sure how much the formula has changed for this season.

One thing I have learned is that there is a group that find weekdays preferable. So we will be sure to take that into account for our 2016 season.

Mario
August 2nd, 2015, 06:34pm
I thought The Whole day went very well. You can't control Mother Nature, but for students, doing half day in dry and half day in wet, i think it's the best for learning car control/car balance. I always try to turn these situations in a way that the student thinks/feels it was all positive. Having 2 cars off seem like the average for days like these and when the students witnesses these things, they tend to behave and listen a lot more. Good job Rob!

I wasn't suppose to help that day since I was racing in the evening, but Pat called me a couple of days ago and I agreed to do just the morning, which turned into a full day because of my brake problem. I think it's very demanding when instructors have 2 students per day. You jump from a car to the next all day.

GoP-Demon
August 2nd, 2015, 07:14pm
I've gone off track with wing before [emoji57] it wasn't as violent as others though and it didn't disrupt anything I think.


Need more good judgment speeches. It really made me realize that yah bringing my car home at the end is the best thing.

Funny thing, it probably took me 8 or 9 times at calabogie for me to realize when you guys said 2 wheels off and 4 wheels off I thought you meant in the air, not the grass.

Jethro
August 2nd, 2015, 07:42pm
Omg GOP.

Pete
August 2nd, 2015, 07:51pm
Catching air at Bogie... :lol:

I'm not accepting that challenge.

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 07:52pm
Wait we went off? Oh yeah... Inside of 17 nowhere near a wall at least

Pete
August 2nd, 2015, 07:58pm
Literally turned left cresting 3 on the last session. SOOO happy to fill out the confidential logbook on that one.

WTF... Ass puckering moment there

1Morelap
August 2nd, 2015, 08:03pm
WTF... Ass puckering moment there
Should say he's the 1 percent. Most novices are great and listen well.


Petawaracer. Never feel pressure to keep going. If it gets uncomfortable. Pit in and let the organiser know what's up. We can always change up cars.

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 08:28pm
LOL my student was nothing like Greg's, but he was my first, uh, dud? Had a fully prepped BMW with 5-point etc. and said he did a lot of running at Tremblant with the BMW club. Hokay.

So he just gave me a bad instructor rating LOL. As expected.

He says I was useless to him because he couldn't hear me on the intercom. Yeah, sure, that's the problem. The chatterbox wasn't perfect but it was working okay for the other guy. The real issue is that he immediately goes into the red zone at pit exit and blocks out all outside input - yelling, frantic waving, or whatever.

At first pit out, at idle so he could hear me perfectly well, I remind him of the blend line. He says okay, and then exits the pit and immediately cross the blend line 10 feet out. So that's how this is gonna go...

Of course he gets black flagged, it was blatant. I point to the marshal and tell him to pit in. I have to repeat this instruction several times, and he only realizes I'm talking and waving just before pit in. He had no clue that there was a black flag, or why, until I told him. He apologizes to John H when he came for the chat, and we go back to pit out. And as soon as we clear the marshal he turns the wheel to the right. OMG. I grab the wheel and straighten the car out just before we cross the line again. After THAT he stopped doing it.

A couple of sessions later we see a vehicle off in 5/6. Unsurprisingly the full course black flag goes out. We pass FOUR waving black flags, with me yelling BLACK FLAG and pointing at the marshal, and he has absolutely no fucking clue. At the bottom of quarry I grabbed the wheel AGAIN and forced him into the pit lane. Sheesh!

After that I decided that I would just punch him in the arm whenever I saw a flag. Fortunately it started raining, and he bailed saying, "my car doesn't handle the rain well". Yeah, no doubt. So I didn't get a chance to try the punch method.

Pete
August 2nd, 2015, 08:31pm
Yeah, no doubt. So I didn't get a chance to try the punch method.

This really makes me want to take on the instructor course next spring :lol:

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 08:43pm
Never had anyone that bad. Terry is close though, can't hear you when we are driving... Can't hear or not listening?

Kind of weird my guy said he could do Mosport blind folded and been lapping for 20 years.

I heard so many stories like that Saturday. So many guys experts apparently at Mosport yet couldn't remember two corners... I know Mosport really only has like 5 of them but come on.

You need some type of car control at Mosport, the speeds are so high, yet that seemed lacking as well.

My guy said he instructs at Mosport, omg their standards must be low because he was jerky, shifting mid corner, forgetting to shift, no heal and toe and carried zero speed.

When it rained he drove dead center in the middle of the track and ignored everything I said.

He also grunted at every corner, pretty sure he was using max brain capacity to turn the wheel.

Lapping is not for him.

GoP-Demon
August 2nd, 2015, 08:58pm
Yah I think going off in 17 was the day I tried to learn heel toe. Heel toed too late and poorly and turned at same time.


If that gruntting guy was only a yellow gtr.... (INITIAL D reference)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4Oh1CHu7ig

Jethro
August 2nd, 2015, 09:09pm
All these awesome stories....

The guy who's buying my mustang said he had Peter Brownhill as an instructor....enTrack day. He said Peter lost his shit a bit. "You're driving slower than my mother, and something about it's not raining. He said the #95 pool mustang was really twitchy, made him spin.

Let's see how long the stang stays unwrinkled.

petawawarace
August 2nd, 2015, 09:16pm
Good to know. I'll have no problem letting someone know I'm not comfortable with their driving. I'm assuming they will be getting the "check your ego at the door" speech?

condor888000
August 2nd, 2015, 09:17pm
Jesus, what cars were you guys instructing in? That sounds terrible.

t
August 2nd, 2015, 09:20pm
I heard today that the big off yesterday was a student driving the instructors car..........

Ugh.

condor888000
August 2nd, 2015, 09:22pm
Driver was the Bro in law of the owner. Owner was also acting as an "instructor" despite never having seen the track before.

Mario
August 2nd, 2015, 09:26pm
Of course he gets black flagged, it was blatant. I point to the marshal and tell him to pit in.
That's funny because I was at pit out with my student and the guy in front goes and steps and crosses the blend line, I laugh at the marshall and he replied, what can I do, we just black flagged him for the same thing, now he goes out and does it again.

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 09:26pm
How hard could it be? I've done Mosport a million times. Oh shit which corner is this one again?

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 09:31pm
All these awesome stories....

The guy who's buying my mustang said he had Peter Brownhill as an instructor....enTrack day. He said Peter lost his shit a bit. "You're driving slower than my mother, and something about it's not raining. He said the #95 pool mustang was really twitchy, made him spin.

Let's see how long the stang stays unwrinkled.
Huh... Apparently Peter lost his shit on a guy yesterday too.

Peter really? He was having a shit day though, it rained so his car wouldn't start. Then after an hour trying he drove it on his trailer and went too far forward.

Then tried to back up and nearly slid off the trailer. I suggested we could push it. He put a block to stop it. We pushed backwards block went flying.

There I am holding a spoke of the wheel stopping a 3000lb car from flying off a trailer. How I stopped it I'll never know....

Jethro
August 2nd, 2015, 09:41pm
Super wing !

GoP-Demon
August 2nd, 2015, 09:42pm
What kind of vehicle doesn't start in rain? Mr2?

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 09:47pm
Porsche

Rainey94
August 2nd, 2015, 10:02pm
Some interesting stories on here... I just dont know how anyone can possibly come to one of these events as a noob to Bogie and not listen to their instructor. I guess both times I had an instructor I was just concentrated on doing exactly what they said, not pretending I was Sebastian Loeb. Do theses egos frequently attend or is this just an 'interesting' batch you guys were instructing?

bunta
August 2nd, 2015, 10:09pm
Timeless

https://youtu.be/b7iUKaPlBl8

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 10:21pm
That's funny because I was at pit out with my student and the guy in front goes and steps and crosses the blend line, I laugh at the marshall and he replied, what can I do, we just black flagged him for the same thing, now he goes out and does it again.

Sounds like my guy. Black and blue BMW? It's entirely possible I didn't straighten him out in time... but he did get the message.

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 10:28pm
Some interesting stories on here... I just dont know how anyone can possibly come to one of these events as a noob to Bogie and not listen to their instructor. I guess both times I had an instructor I was just concentrated on doing exactly what they said, not pretending I was Sebastian Loeb. Do theses egos frequently attend or is this just an 'interesting' batch you guys were instructing?

It was more like they were concentrating on the track and not hearing -- not that they didn't want to hear but they couldn't hear. It happens to some people, I've noticed...

dbg
August 2nd, 2015, 11:04pm
To echo what Greg said, most of the noobs are great. My other student yesterday did a really good job, and had the track figured out by early afternoon.


Catching air at Bogie... :lol:

I'm not accepting that challenge.

Oh man, I was having a blast last night chasing Mustangs on the short track. The car gets so light at 9A that you swear you're about to leave the ground. When you're in close pursuit you can really see the suspension travel on the car in front. There's not much weight on the wheels.

I12XLR8
August 2nd, 2015, 11:12pm
So...I'll be instructing on the 9th. For the first time. I hope I get some granny trying to put her Dodge Aires through its paces. At 50mph ;)

No wheel grabbing, arm punching, or black flags is just fine with me. If anyone tells me they could fly a helicopter without prior experience I'm coming to find you guys!

1Morelap
August 2nd, 2015, 11:15pm
search for your inner Figo and all goes well.

wing
August 2nd, 2015, 11:19pm
West track instructing was a BREEZE. And most of the people are complete noobs so they will listen like you are a zen master. I had fun last time, everyone listened. Some needed one lap and they were pros, others needed coaching for 3 maybe 4 laps.

Don't think I had one person I wasn't cheering for by lap 4 and making them feel like they were super stars. That's the key to Aug 9th.

Rainey94
August 2nd, 2015, 11:21pm
I'm looking forward to giving point-byes :)

raggedrabbit
August 3rd, 2015, 10:16am
Catching air at Bogie... :lol:

I'm not accepting that challenge.

:fyea:

edit: bumpy outfields at 2 and 17...

raggedrabbit
August 3rd, 2015, 10:36am
With the two student days its funny how often the novice student outperforms the intermediate student by the end of the day. I think they are just more prepared to learn when they show up. I'm not saying that in a condescending or negative way, but its a trend that others have noticed as well as myself. I know the Air Force has a preference for non-pilots.

1Morelap
August 3rd, 2015, 11:27am
my reviews are in. stellar review from my time attack student. The other guy doesn't want me back. weird.

Mario
August 3rd, 2015, 05:05pm
...The car gets so light at 9A that you swear you're about to leave the ground. ..
I caught big air at 9A one time. Rear wheels lifted right off the ground. You can definitely take it too fast. Fifth gear, no good. Imagine how fast your going if you need to shift to fifth. Not a good feeling




(Note to self: fifth gear ONLY after 9A)

figo
August 3rd, 2015, 09:49pm
West track instructing was a BREEZE. And most of the people are complete noobs so they will listen like you are a zen master. I had fun last time, everyone listened. Some needed one lap and they were pros, others needed coaching for 3 maybe 4 laps.

Don't think I had one person I wasn't cheering for by lap 4 and making them feel like they were super stars. That's the key to Aug 9th.

This, the toughest part is reading the person, their comfort zone, skill, etc and push them a little if you think they can go for it. This would be easy if you could sit and casually talk about their car, experiences and expectations before going out. Encouragement is key, positive feedback with tips on improving. Make sure they are having fun. Your energy will rub off and give them confidence and put them comfortable, focused in the zone.
-just a guy who loves motorsports

figo
August 3rd, 2015, 09:53pm
First lap in a corvette, 9a was sideways lol

Wookie
August 3rd, 2015, 10:12pm
9A is only crazy fast when the track is split in 2 right?

Even with the RSX and me braking after the straight I noticed it get lighter there.

wing
August 3rd, 2015, 10:16pm
In a high horsepower car it can be tricky on full track too

Mario
August 3rd, 2015, 10:17pm
This, the toughest part is reading the person, their comfort zone, skill, etc and push them a little if you think they can go for it. This would be easy if you could sit and casually talk about their car, experiences and expectations before going out. Encouragement is key, positive feedback with tips on improving. Make sure they are having fun. Your energy will rub off and give them confidence and put them comfortable, focused in the zone.
-just a guy who loves motorsports
THIS^^ :clap2:
I always say I have 3 rules before we go on track in the morning:
1. Keep you safe (so you can drive your car back home)
2. Keep others safe from you (so they can drive their cars back home)
3. I want you to have fun out there (and learn a lot)

I teach in the morning and make sure in the afternoon, that they are having fun and are meeting their objectives. They can't learn anymore stuff in the afternoon anyways. But they can practice and be better faster drivers and leave with a big smile. I see them like a client, tell them the hard stuff first and make sure they leave Happy and satisfied

dbg
August 3rd, 2015, 10:19pm
I've spun in 9A in the wet, on long track. You should have some respect for that corner regardless.

On short track it is potentially dangerous if you don't take it right. The trick is to relax the steering lock for the "landing". If you watch the race vid I just posted, I'm relaxing the steering when the car lands then turning again as soon as there is weight on the wheels. In fact when I was really pushing the wheel was completely straight or even a little countersteering.

Mario
August 3rd, 2015, 10:24pm
THIS^^ Going over 9A with the steering wheel as straight as possible is the fastest, safest way. It takes a little practice to line up the car because it's a curve. Lol

dbg
August 3rd, 2015, 11:06pm
Instead of the single smooth arc they teach you, drive down the left side of the track a bit and turn in later for 9A, that gives you margin for a tiny bit of straight line on the other side. You can very clearly see Chris doing that in my vid, and I'm following on the same line. Elsewhere our lines are very different, but we do the same thing in 9A.

petawawarace
August 3rd, 2015, 11:29pm
Float right front over the grass at 9A. Long track I'm shifting into 4th just before the crest, short track is 5th just before crest. (6 speed tho). I'll look at the data again, but I think it was 20mph difference between the 2.

Do you guys have a quick little speach for newbies when you get in the car for the first time? I'm thinking Aug 9th there won't be much time to get aquatinted beforehand

iandachef
August 4th, 2015, 12:55am
"Ma'am are you sure you want to take your Toyota Solara on a race track?"

dbg
August 4th, 2015, 01:04am
"Ma'am, you ARE sure."

1Morelap
August 4th, 2015, 06:38am
Do you guys have a quick little speach for newbies when you get in the car for the first time? I'm thinking Aug 9th there won't be much time to get aquatinted beforehand

You'll have time to say hello, check their helmet is on right, check they removed the lawn chairs from the back seat and tell them how much fun they're going to have.
They do an in class session before they get in the car. The details of which will be emailed to the instructors ahead of time.
They will do about 4 laps of follow the leader and then be on their way. This is a novice event, they don't go very fast in their first time on track.

Robin2
August 4th, 2015, 08:00am
track days..... the fun the joys the butt clenching times! :)

there's always 1 or 2 who shouldn't be there...... and yet they think they're next road racer.

1Morelap
August 4th, 2015, 08:03am
sunday is a 30min session, not a typical track day.

wing
August 4th, 2015, 09:04am
The important question is did you secure a food truck?

1Morelap
August 4th, 2015, 09:09am
man, what an ordeal. 300 people confirmed to be there with no where to go, not counting the show n shine attendance.

basic complaint, it's far. offer to pay gas and they say it's a lot of work.

got a solid lead this morning, not a truck but they WANT to be there, which is awesome. very mixed menu, but it feeds people.

I12XLR8
August 4th, 2015, 09:25am
Opening the onsite Cafe isn't possible?

Jethro
August 4th, 2015, 09:29am
Opening the onsite Cafe isn't possible?

$9.00 muffins.

1Morelap
August 4th, 2015, 09:36am
actually they will be open, but yah. that.

the ice cream truck said no. After I bought a 5$ ice cream sammich. booourns.

wing
August 4th, 2015, 09:37am
It's a lot of work. Oh odd that work is work....

I12XLR8
August 4th, 2015, 09:41am
Put a freezer and grill in my trailer and a chalkboard outside to write shit on. Bam! 1morechipwagon

Jethro
August 4th, 2015, 09:47am
Put a freezer and grill in my trailer and a chalkboard outside to write shit on. Bam! 1morechipwagon


1moreepicburger