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Veyronkiller
May 18th, 2015, 11:26pm
It's time to start looking for brake pads for the beast.

Since I want to have to swap calipers for every event (when going from drag to lapping)
I want something that will work well for both. So I have to keep my 10.9 slotted/vented rotors size instead of going with the 12" big brake kit. Eventually that's where I'm going but for now it would be too big of a change. I do have adjustable bias and big brakes on the rear setup (which I can use to my advantage with the weight distribution and low weight transfer)

Currently I have decent quality pads Ceramic Carbon Police pack Z9 which perform well for drag use, but are mostly a high performance street pad and I have a feeling they will fade with a few hot laps.

Another problem is I cannot hold my car on the line at the drag strip. 700FT-lbs + of torque at 3000rpm will do that.
I had good experience with Hawk HP plus in the 300HP 3200lbs Saturn which I found adequate for lapping and I liked their aggressive bite, cold or hot. For my needs, the brake pad has to have good performance cold as well as hot.
Anything better than HPS for that need ?

I will need all the brake pad that I can get because at 3200lbs and lets say power at 50% (800HP) with an auto transmission (less engine braking) the car will be hard on brakes.

mphysk
May 18th, 2015, 11:33pm
carbotech ax6 is a better hps.

hawk has made a new compound called street race i think to compete with the ax6. jury is out on them.

wing
May 18th, 2015, 11:36pm
Well I'm extremely impressed with the carbotech xp12s I have. Car is 3800lbs, hot or cold the brakes will lock up the tires instantly if stomped on. But they have good feel and awesome initial bite.

Veyronkiller
May 18th, 2015, 11:43pm
AS far as brake size, I think I will bite the bullet and just deal with the caliper swap for different types of events...
I will put on the GXP (V8) big brakes 12.7" dual pistons aluminum. Can't take a chance on that...
But that means the cheap 15" race slicks will not be an option.

Carbotech XP12 humm... The description you give is what I want.

1Morelap
May 18th, 2015, 11:45pm
if you go hawk, HT10s or the DTC 60s 70s. HP+ is not a track pad.

1Morelap
May 18th, 2015, 11:46pm
Hawk DTC-70
Race Compound

Race Use Only


(Available in limited pad shapes)http://raceshopper.com/images/hawk_dtc_racing_pads.jpg (http://raceshopper.com/images/hawk_dtc_racing_pads_big.jpg)
Dynamic Torque Control-70
DTC Series compounds provide extremely smooth braking performance while providing excellent torque control characteristics unmatched by any other brake pad.
Highest Friction coefficient of any Hawk racing compound.
Consistent torque over all pressures .
High Initial Bite.
Excellent modulation and release characteristics.
Good wear.
PDF Specifications (http://raceshopper.com/images/hawk_dtc70_brake_pads.pdf)

NASCAR, Busch, Craftsman Truck, Road Racing, Sports Car, GT Racing,
Hooters Cup, Pavement Super Late Models,

Operating Temp:
500F - 1600F



Hawk DTC-60
Race Compound

Race Use Only


(Available in limited pad shapes)http://raceshopper.com/images/hawk_dtc_racing_pads.jpg (http://raceshopper.com/images/hawk_dtc_racing_pads_big.jpg)
Dynamic Torque Control-60
Slightly lower friction coefficient and bite compared to DTC-70.
Smooth braking feel with excellent torque and control.
Excellent wear.
This is a good choice for
rear brake applications when used in conjunction with
DTC-70 on the front.

NASCAR, Busch, Craftsman Truck, Road Racing, Sports Car, GT Racing,
Hooters Cup, Pavement Super Late Models,

Operating Temp:
500F - 1600F


HT14
Race Compound

Race Use Only
Very high torque with aggressive initial bite. Excellent modulation and release characteristics. Designed for cars with extremely high deceleration rates and down force. Supercedes HT-12 material.
Open wheel formula cars, CART, Toyota Atlantic, F2000, F3000, Trans-Am, Porsche GT

Operating Temp:
300F - 1600F


HT10
Race Compound

Race Use Only
High torque with a smooth initial bite . Excellent modulation, consistent pedal, good release characteristics.

NASCAR, Busch Grand National, Super Truck, Hooter's Cup

Operating Temp:
300F - 1600F

Veyronkiller
May 18th, 2015, 11:46pm
carbotech ax6 is a better hps.

hawk has made a new compound called street race i think to compete with the ax6. jury is out on them.
Just to be clear, my first lapping event with you guys in the Saturn, I had the HPS and after 3 hot laps, I ran out of brakes in the straight with next to zero warning.
Barely made the corner downshifting into the rev limiter. Parked the car and waited for the next event. Used HP Plus and it's night and day. I never faded those and much more stopping power. But noisy as hell (Full metallic)

Veyronkiller
May 18th, 2015, 11:50pm
So Greg with the above chart, seems like the DTC-60 would be my choice since they have aggressive bite.
That means cold they bite hard while the HT-10 would need some heat to start grabbing ? Hence the smooth initial bite.
Or am I reading this wrong ?

Then again the chart says the Operating them of the HT-10 start at a cooler temperature. But bite is soft with low pedal pressure.

1Morelap
May 18th, 2015, 11:57pm
nah, other way. I used ht10s on the street. they work cold.

the DTC need lots of heat to work. I had issues keeping them in their optimum range, it wasn't for me, so I went back to the ht10s. they are predictable.

The tires are a factor in deciding your brake choice too. If they are sticky, you need a pad to match.

dbg
May 19th, 2015, 12:05am
So Greg with the above chart, seems like the DTC-60 would be my choice since they have aggressive bite.
That means cold they bite hard while the HT-10 would need some heat to start grabbing ? Hence the smooth initial bite.
Or am I reading this wrong ?

Then again the chart says the Operating them of the HT-10 start at a cooler temperature. But bite is soft with low pedal pressure.

I've run HT-10 and DTC-60 on my Corvette, and greatly prefer the DTC-60. They have excellent initial bite yet are easier to modulate than the HT-10.


the DTC need lots of heat to work. I had issues keeping them in their optimum range, it wasn't for me, so I went back to the ht10s. they are predictable.

Goes to show, our cars are very similar... different strokes for different folks.

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 12:08am
nah, other way. I used ht10s on the street. they work cold.

the DTC need lots of heat to work. I had issues keeping them in their optimum range, it wasn't for me, so I went back to the ht10s. they are predictable.

The tires are a factor in deciding your brake choice too. If they are sticky, you need a pad to match.

I'll be going with a tire that hooks well. That is also on the shopping list. Any suggestion there would also be appreciated.
If I keep my 10.9 rotors, I can go with dirt cheap and probably decent 9" wide asphalt slicks from American Racer. I hear they hook really good.

If I go with the 12.7 I have to go with 17" minimum rim size.

1Morelap
May 19th, 2015, 12:12am
I have no experience is AR tires, probably bias ply slicks, better suited for the smaller wheel too. If you go DOT in 17s, the choices are KumhoV710s or Hoosier R7s. but they are not cheap like the ARs.
rock the ARs man. Maybe petawawa racer knows more about them.

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 12:18am
I have no experience is AR tires, probably bias ply slicks, better suited for the smaller wheel too. If you go DOT in 17s, the choices are KumhoV710s or Hoosier R7s. but they are not cheap like the ARs.
rock the ARs man. Maybe petawawa racer knows more about them.
I guess best thing would be a good brake pad with my smaller rotors and the 15" cheap slicks that are 100$ each to start.
Then if I want to get serious upgrade.

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 12:42am
the Carbotech XP12 seem to have a nice temperature range where they perform well
250 - 1850 F Range

yanrider
May 19th, 2015, 07:34am
I think I'd get rid of the Swiss cheese rotors for lapping first off. Secondly, a newbie especially with a fast car will melt pretty much any pads IMO.

wing
May 19th, 2015, 08:52am
I've run ht10 dtc60 and 70 and now the carbotech and really they are amazing.

Squeal though

1Morelap
May 19th, 2015, 08:59am
I think I'd get rid of the Swiss cheese rotors for lapping first off.

ya, didn't see that. they'll crack faster than a regular disk.

mightymousetech
May 19th, 2015, 09:46am
Agreed, first thing get rid of drilled rotors.

NoLimits Autoparts
May 19th, 2015, 10:07am
Simplest upgrade on the GP brakes is a 158 casting caliper bracket so you can run the 12" 99 camaro rotors vs the stock 10.5. but you will need 16" rims, but you could just switch the bracket back and forth to run your 15" drag rims. I have a set of brackets here if you need them. Hawk Lists the DTC30 for high deceleration drag racing.

I would not worry about pads that are good for 1800F, you will crack every cast rotor going over 1200f. You will need 2 piece rotors for over that.

petawawarace
May 19th, 2015, 10:44am
I have no experience is AR tires, probably bias ply slicks, better suited for the smaller wheel too. If you go DOT in 17s, the choices are KumhoV710s or Hoosier R7s. but they are not cheap like the ARs.
rock the ARs man. Maybe petawawa racer knows more about them.

The AR may work well for drag racing, but I doubt they will work great for lapping. There is a reason they are so cheap. The will not last very long. The other challenge with bias plys is they are inconsistent in size. You have to match each set you get. It used to be a mad dash to the tire truck on race weekends so we could get the proper stagger for turning left. Even saw a few punches thrown.

We ran the Hoosier R6's (predecessor to the R7) on the Legend and they were fantastic. Lasted a really long time, and were super predictable.

As for changing brakes for different uses, these are expensive but work really well.

http://www.galferusa.com/quick-disconnect-brake-lines-available-from-galfer-usa/

mightymousetech
May 19th, 2015, 11:34am
carbotech ax6 is a better hps.

hawk has made a new compound called street race i think to compete with the ax6. jury is out on them.

Hmm, the Streetrace sound promising. Up to 1200 F.

mphysk
May 19th, 2015, 11:40am
Hmm, the Streetrace sound promising. Up to 1200 F.


yup!

will be trying them in 5 years when my ax6/xp8 wear out.

mightymousetech
May 19th, 2015, 11:54am
yup!

will be trying them in 5 years when my ax6/xp8 wear out.

Are you using AX6 on the street and XP8 on the track?

Just looking for something good for the street that can take an 8/10ths or 9/10ths speed lapping day.

condor888000
May 19th, 2015, 12:00pm
I believe he has ax6 in front and xp8 in back.

I use ax6 for everything.

Manimillion
May 19th, 2015, 12:07pm
I'm running a set of XP10's on one of my cars.

The XP10's are on a car driven on the street and they are fine even when there isn't much heat into them. But the XP series mainly the number depends on the weight of the car as well. Carbotech is very helpful, call them and they will recommend a pad for your use.

Remember as your driving improves you will make less use of the brakes or lets say more efficient use of them.

mphysk
May 19th, 2015, 02:25pm
Yeah, what pat said.... Ax6 front/ xp8 rear, I like a rear bias cause I'm weird. Perfectly fine in the street and very awesome on track.

My old Miata had xp12/xp10 and they were great but noisy on the street.

And what mani said, carbotech is great.... Very easy to get ahold of a dude who knows what he is talking about. Anytime I've mentioned my rear bias preference in the past people look at me like I have two heads and then try to convince me otherwise. Carbotech dude was great and understood what I was getting at and recommended the right pad for me

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 02:55pm
Yeah, what pat said.... Ax6 front/ xp8 rear, I like a rear bias cause I'm weird. Perfectly fine in the street and very awesome on track.

My old Miata had xp12/xp10 and they were great but noisy on the street.

And what mani said, carbotech is great.... Very easy to get ahold of a dude who knows what he is talking about. Anytime I've mentioned my rear bias preference in the past people look at me like I have two heads and then try to convince me otherwise. Carbotech dude was great and understood what I was getting at and recommended the right pad for me

I do have adustable rear/front brake bias via the Wildwood manual brake dual master pedal kit.
Everything I read points towards the XP12 being really good for consistency and strong initial bite which is what I want.

Here's the kit I really need but I will have to swap brake setups for drag racing (minus the swiss cheese rotors lol). Vibrant sells those quick connect lines as well. Pricey but practical. I just feel uneasy with a "quick connect" on a brake line in general...

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/667-12-7-GXP-Dual-Piston-Brake-Kit.aspx

http://shop.zzperformance.com/resize/images/products/1238_1.jpg?lr=t&bw=600&bh=600

Manimillion
May 19th, 2015, 05:49pm
I do have adustable rear/front brake bias via the Wildwood manual brake dual master pedal kit.
Everything I read points towards the XP12 being really good for consistency and strong initial bite which is what I want.

Here's the kit I really need but I will have to swap brake setups for drag racing (minus the swiss cheese rotors lol). Vibrant sells those quick connect lines as well. Pricey but practical. I just feel uneasy with a "quick connect" on a brake line in general...

http://shop.zzperformance.com/store/p/667-12-7-GXP-Dual-Piston-Brake-Kit.aspx





You need Stahlbus Dry Break connectors. Forget Vibrant.

http://www.stahlbus.com/info/images/stories/Produktuebersicht-Schnelltrennkupplungen-620px-opt.jpg

Used by many top level endurance racing teams for motorcycles. You got to pay to play though my friend.

http://www.isa-racing.com/index.php/cat/c183_Staeubli-Schnellkupplungen-fuer-Bremse.html

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 09:53pm
What is different than vibrant apart from the price. ? Is vibrant the chinese copy ?

http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1022_1300_1382

They look.the same and are expensive as well just not stupid expensive like 300$ for a fitting.

petawawarace
May 19th, 2015, 10:42pm
Those Vibrant ones are for fuel lines. They are not listed as "Clean break" fittings. This means no air will enter the system.
The Staubli are the only ones to buy. We use Staubli fittings on all of our robots. Others leak after time, but not the Staubli ones.

These are the ones you need:
http://www.staubli.com/en/connectors/quick-couplings/hydraulic-coupling/clean-break-motorsports-sphba/

Angry Chicken
May 19th, 2015, 11:02pm
Those Vibrant ones are for fuel lines. They are not listed as "Clean break" fittings. This means no air will enter the system.
The Staubli are the only ones to buy. We use Staubli fittings on all of our robots. Others leak after time, but not the Staubli ones.

These are the ones you need:
http://www.staubli.com/en/connectors/quick-couplings/hydraulic-coupling/clean-break-motorsports-sphba/
I just want to buy a set because they look so cool! Seriously, I'm just at the point where I'm going to replace all my brake lines with braided ones, is there any reason to buy these (please say yes) if I'm not constantly replacing pads and having to bleed my brakes? :whistle:

luker
May 19th, 2015, 11:15pm
These are for when VeyronKiller swaps out calipers and rotors between setups. Just changing pads would gain nothing from these and probably add headaches.

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 11:41pm
Those Vibrant ones are for fuel lines. They are not listed as "Clean break" fittings. This means no air will enter the system.
The Staubli are the only ones to buy. We use Staubli fittings on all of our robots. Others leak after time, but not the Staubli ones.

These are the ones you need:
http://www.staubli.com/en/connectors/quick-couplings/hydraulic-coupling/clean-break-motorsports-sphba/

I was under the impression they also locked fluid in when released (Vibrant ones). At that price, I hope they do...

But for brake lines, there aren't a more important connection followed by fuel lines and oil cooler lines. You don't want to mess what that.

bunta
May 19th, 2015, 11:42pm
Is the beast your project car?
Or another vehicle?

Veyronkiller
May 19th, 2015, 11:42pm
Is the beast your project car?
Or another vehicle?
Yes same car.

petawawarace
May 19th, 2015, 11:48pm
I was under the impression they also locked fluid in when released (Vibrant ones). At that price, I hope they do...

But for brake lines, there aren't a more important connection followed by fuel lines and oil cooler lines. You don't want to mess what that.

They may not release any fluid, but what you want is not to allow air into the system. Two different things. For brake lines, have a little fluid loss when disconnecting or connecting wouldn't be a horrible problem. Getting air into the system would be.

Veyronkiller
May 20th, 2015, 12:00am
They may not release any fluid, but what you want is not to allow air into the system. Two different things. For brake lines, have a little fluid loss when disconnecting or connecting wouldn't be a horrible problem. Getting air into the system would be.

On some cars it's difficult to bleed out. The saturn was horrible for that.

But on my brake system which consist of two seperate masters and no ABS module, it's a joke. I was shocked when I first did the brake lines how quick we got a stiff pedal. I bet changing calipers would be like a 30 minute job including the bleeding. Not a massive problem but quick release would make this into a 15 minute job.

Manimillion
May 20th, 2015, 12:05am
On some cars it's difficult to bleed out. The saturn was horrible for that.

But on my brake system which consist of two seperate masters and no ABS module, it's a joke. I was shocked when I first did the brake lines how quick we got a stiff pedal. I bet changing calipers would be like a 30 minute job including the bleeding. Not a massive problem but quick release would make this into a 15 minute job.

I hope your car's safety doesn't effect others safety on the track. That's all.

Veyronkiller
May 20th, 2015, 12:29am
I hope your car's safety doesn't effect others safety on the track. That's all.
And why would that be ?

EvilDeadFan
May 21st, 2015, 09:04am
Because he might be one of the "others" on the track. :P

wing
May 21st, 2015, 09:38am
Get a brake bleeder for $50 and use that. Just hook up to line, pump a few times and open the valve. Done.

mightymousetech
May 21st, 2015, 09:46am
Or install a recirculation valve. Bleed out any air that got into the lines by just pumping the brakes several times.

http://www.dpiracingproducts.com/lc-sb-brake-fluid-re-circulator/

Or even fancier:

http://www.dpiracingproducts.com/dpi-sure-stop-ii/

raggedrabbit
May 21st, 2015, 09:56am
Or install a recirculation valve. Bleed out any air that got into the lines by just pumping the brakes several times.

http://www.dpiracingproducts.com/lc-sb-brake-fluid-re-circulator/

Or even fancier:

http://www.dpiracingproducts.com/dpi-sure-stop-ii/

I'm just gonna put that on my do want list...

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 11:15am
So what pad do you guys recommend for an AutoX/Track car? I have Hawk Blues and I really cook them at the track but they take a lap and a half to heat up.

Pete
May 28th, 2015, 11:33am
So what pad do you guys recommend for an AutoX/Track car? I have Hawk Blues and I really cook them at the track but they take a lap and a half to heat up.

2 sets of pads.

HP+ for Auto-X
Blues or Black at the track.

The HP+ squeel but fuck do they grab properly when cold.

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 11:35am
XP10 any good cold?

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 11:36am
2 sets of pads.

HP+ for Auto-X
Blues or Black at the track.

The HP+ squeel but fuck do they grab properly when cold.

I've been thinking of trying one of the DTC series pads too. I have issues with consistency due to temps at the track, to be honest.

wing
May 28th, 2015, 11:39am
I found the hawks sucked cold.

Carbotech I'm a convert

mightymousetech
May 28th, 2015, 11:42am
I found the hawks sucked cold.

Carbotech I'm a convert

Which compound you using on the street? Quiet? Dust?

wing
May 28th, 2015, 11:44am
Xp12 front 10 rear. Dust is okay.

Squeals like a pig being run over constantly. Like insanely loud but I can't hear it with the windows up

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 11:46am
Xp12 front 10 rear. Dust is okay.

Squeals like a pig being run over constantly. Like insanely loud but I can't hear it with the windows up

Lots of bite? Does the feel change as they get hot?

Have you tried to fade them or had them fade? i.e. for bedding.

mightymousetech
May 28th, 2015, 11:46am
Xp12 front 10 rear. Dust is okay.

Squeals like a pig being run over constantly. Like insanely loud but I can't hear it with the windows up

Gee, that sounds reasonable on the street.

wing
May 28th, 2015, 11:48am
Rabbit is running a race car he doesn't care. I don't really either, too bad for ppl with Windows down.

They bite hard cold and hot, feel the same really. Even dead cold they will lock the tires.

dbg
May 28th, 2015, 11:55am
Personally I don't see the point of HP+. DTC60 is far superior. Better bite, handle high temps better, and last longer. They're fine for street, and whisper quiet in comparison to HP+.

mightymousetech
May 28th, 2015, 12:01pm
Rabbit is running a race car he doesn't care. I don't really either, too bad for ppl with Windows down.

They bite hard cold and hot, feel the same really. Even dead cold they will lock the tires.

True. I had HP+ on for a week and could not stand the noise.

wing
May 28th, 2015, 12:02pm
The dtc60 are quiet but not great cold. OK on the street I guess but found at autox I wanted more bite

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 12:04pm
So, XP10 is not terrible then.

k thanks!

Who sells these unicorns?

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 12:10pm
Yeah, noise and dust is not a problem. Car is light so I doubt even a high wearing pad would last less than a year, no problems there.

All my brake steel is blue and purple and I've had the liner come off the backing on the Hawk blues in the past though, so I know they get hot. And I'd like to AutoX this year, so they need to work cold.

NoLimits Autoparts
May 28th, 2015, 12:10pm
DTC 60 and 70 are designed to work from 400-1600F, So no, you wont have any bite or feel when cold, DTC30 is from 100-1200F, much better suited for what you guys are asking for. They have come out with new street compounds this year, but the website is terrible and gives no useable info yet.

HP+ to DTC 60 is the low to high end temp range of hawk pads, you have 8 temp compounds between the two.

inverted
May 28th, 2015, 12:13pm
So, XP10 is not terrible then.

k thanks!

Who sells these unicorns?
For Canada - Frank Ewald http://ewaldperformance.com/faqmedia.php

MANL should get them though IMO so I can give him all my moneys.

For USA - 949 Racing

FWIW I'm running XP8 now (street tires) and AutoX seems fine.

iandachef
May 28th, 2015, 12:19pm
What's the temp range on hp+?

NoLimits Autoparts
May 28th, 2015, 01:13pm
I had to order through Frank in the spring, Did it more as a service. I have called every performance distributor in canada, trying to get someone to take on the Carbotech line, but no one seems to be jumping on that bandwagon. Sucks, as I do my best to only support canadian marketplace

Erwan
May 28th, 2015, 01:38pm
+1000000 on the Carbotechs.

That's all I ran on the GTI since it got on the track 4 years ago (mostly xp10 front, xp8 rear - last season I ran xp12 front and xp10 rear). I ordered directly from them, shipped to the US. My contact was Mike, you can reach him jr@ctbrakes.com

I would suggest calling him first, let him know your application (car weight, tires, application) and he'll recommend a pad for you. XP12s may be overkill for a light car or a car car running street tires etc...just make sure you get the right pad for you.

mphysk
May 28th, 2015, 02:12pm
Saferacer has free shipping US shipping.

Everywhere sells the pads for the same price. No deals to be had.

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 02:50pm
Thanks alot guys, I'll maybe look into a set of XP10s.

pyxen
May 28th, 2015, 10:36pm
Any big benefit in getting rears for the track? All braking done in the front, no?

wing
May 28th, 2015, 10:40pm
Depends on the car. Ideally it's 60/40 not all front

bunta
May 28th, 2015, 10:54pm
Depends on the car. Ideally it's 60/40 not all front

I disagree with that split on a production car

I'd day 85/15
Just my 2 cents

wing
May 28th, 2015, 10:56pm
Maybe on normal cars yeah, better balanced cars are better

dbg
May 28th, 2015, 11:08pm
Maybe on normal cars yeah, better balanced cars are better

Corvette rear brakes last maybe 20% longer than fronts. Definitely using the things.

Same for S2000. I'm sure a Miata is the same.

Listen to wing, you should.

bunta
May 28th, 2015, 11:08pm
Balanced cars? Great for handling but when braking hard.. I'm putting my faith into the front brakes.. rears do minimal in my opinion

raggedrabbit
May 28th, 2015, 11:51pm
Front drive cars will use alot more fronts, probably due to rotational inertia just as much as balance.

Civics and VWs should hardly use rears at all. I regret putting discs back there and I might go back to the 9" drums. I read an old VW Motorsport article that talked about less than 10% rear bias. I can attest to that, I have a bias valve locking out as much rear brake as possible and I still lock them up from time to time.

Most of my braking is done trailing, and when I turn (especially while braking!) I only have one rear wheel on the ground. How useful could it be? Usually I'm LFB trying to lock that bastard up and rotate :)

I've read that minivans often have a very low rear-bias as well. FFT.

inverted
May 28th, 2015, 11:52pm
Miata is super easy on rear brakes.

wing
May 28th, 2015, 11:54pm
S2000 was 2:1 for me so 75:25?

dbg
May 29th, 2015, 12:02am
Yeah, that's probably about right. Corvette is maybe 60:40. Both pads and rotors (cracking). That said the rear hardware is a lot smaller.

raggedrabbit
May 29th, 2015, 12:07am
S2000 was 2:1 for me so 75:25?

Maybe 66:33? Pretty good balance actually, but its a medium power sports sedan with properly sized brakes.

The Miata probably doesn't have the componentry or the power to wear through rear brakes. I wonder if Naresh has buggered with his bias... my brake pad reading has led me to believe that some racers will increase the rear bias, which makes sense as the vehicle gets stiffer and more weight stays back there when you are on the binders.

The wear on the pads might relate to a torque vs. heat dissipation design from the engineers as well. The size of the brakes would relate to torque as well as heat and thus affect modulation, but the heat is what kills the pads. The daily driver crowd has to pay the price for NVH and efficiency of heavier brakes too. Because front and rear brakes are rarely uniform, your pad usage might not reflect the effective bias.

bunta
May 29th, 2015, 12:19am
I think I'm on a different page

Just saying in general front brakes are doing 80% or more of your braking

Eg. Visualize riding a bicycle or motorcycle

80% or more if your stopping power is at the front

Regardless how weight distributon is static

Weight transfer is stressing the fronts in heavy braking

The rear.. if anything is more for balance.. not for actually stopping

Again.... just my take on brakes

1Morelap
May 29th, 2015, 12:22am
Brakes are for turning. adjust accordingly.

pyxen
May 29th, 2015, 12:42am
So I'm just thinking track spec for front (carbotechs XYZ or some HP+) and oem ceramics in the back... because if it's loose in the back, what's the point? .

Veyronkiller
May 29th, 2015, 12:49am
I want to order the XP12s for my 3300 lbs twin engine race car.
I wonder why do you say they could be too much for a street tire?
When you say street do you mean dual purpose tire like my NT01 ?

I really want to go overkill on the brakes since I'll be learning a new car and it's fairly heavy and should be pretty quick in the straights.

Are these pads so aggressive I'll lock up the tires too easily ?

dbg
May 29th, 2015, 01:09am
I think I'm on a different page

Just saying in general front brakes are doing 80% or more of your braking


You need to understand the physics of it. The limiting factor in braking/turning/accelerating is the friction of the tires on the pavement. To a first approximation the friction is proportional to the normal force - the force that pushes the tire into the pavement, i.e. weight on the wheels. (In practice it isn't perfectly linear; you get diminishing returns as you put more weight on the wheels.)

Given that, there are two reasons why the front brakes may be doing more work than the rear:

1. There may be more weight on the front of the car. This tends to be true in front engine cars. Of course that is not always the case; for example, the Corvette is pretty well balanced front/rear. (One of the ways they achieved that was to put the transmission at the rear of the car.)

2. Weight transfer is caused by the fact that the center of gravity of the car is above the axles. Under braking this generates a moment that pushes the front down and lifts the back. A vehicle with a lower center of gravity (e.g. Corvette again) has much less weight transfer than a regular sedan.

Clearly you can decelerate faster if all four wheels are working at it, so more balanced braking is good. (The diminishing returns thing means that weight transfer reduces the overall grip available.)

Race cars tend to be lowered and light-weighted, both of which tend to reduce the overall weight transfer. That's probably why race cars typically have a more rearward brake bias. In fact some race cars have driver-adjustable bias, and drivers can adjust brake bias as their fuel tank empties.

Erwan
May 29th, 2015, 01:28am
I want to order the XP12s for my 3300 lbs twin engine race car.
I wonder why do you say they could be too much for a street tire?

Because you can only brake as good as your tires will stick. You want a brake feel where you can move the pedal down without locking up immediately. If you have too much bite in the brakes and non sticky tires you'll just lock up everywhere and/or harder to control.



When you say street do you mean dual purpose tire like my NT01 ?


I wouldn't consider those streets personally, was thinking more summer street tires.



I really want to go overkill on the brakes since I'll be learning a new car and it's fairly heavy and should be pretty quick in the straights.

Are these pads so aggressive I'll lock up the tires too easily ?

At 3300lb and NT01s they should be fine...but this is why I recommended calling Carbotech as they will ask you these questions and tell you what pad they recommend.

Veyronkiller
May 29th, 2015, 01:53am
The twin engine needs at least 45% rear braking bias and i have all same size brakes all around. All because of very low weight transfer and low center of gravity and good weight balance. production front engine cars have a lot more weight up front and higher center of gravity.

inverted
May 29th, 2015, 11:39am
So I'm just thinking track spec for front (carbotechs XYZ or some HP+) and oem ceramics in the back... because if it's loose in the back, what's the point? .
XP8's are more aggressive than I was planning on going (was going to do AX6). As aggressive as they are I haven't been locking them up with my RS3's which tells me they are probably about right. The rear tires -maybe- very briefly complain on a hard brake. Wouldn't go any less now. Fine on the street and AutoX.

iandachef
May 30th, 2015, 01:58am
so whats the logic in choosing a less agressive compound for the rears as opposed to the fronts? I know this happens often with miata's as many of you are running xp10/xp8 etc. Is there some advantage to this as opposed to just installing a proportioning valve?

mphysk
May 30th, 2015, 10:10am
Yeah, less work.

I'm weird and run a more aggressive pad in the rear. Works for me.

dbg
May 30th, 2015, 04:52pm
I talked to Hawk when selecting my pads for the Corvette. They strongly recommended using the same compound front and back.

Kinda makes sense. The manufacturer sizes the front and back hardware appropriately, and sets the brake bias appropriately, for using the same compound on both ends. Why would that change when you go to a pad with more bite?

raggedrabbit
May 30th, 2015, 05:02pm
I talked to Hawk when selecting my pads for the Corvette. They strongly recommended using the same compound front and back.

Kinda makes sense. The manufacturer sizes the front and back hardware appropriately, and sets the brake bias appropriately, for using the same compound on both ends. Why would that change when you go to a pad with more bite?

The vette has electronic brake force distribution too right? It might just get upset with different pads.

mightymousetech
May 30th, 2015, 08:32pm
Kinda makes sense. The manufacturer sizes the front and back hardware appropriately, and sets the brake bias appropriately, for using the same compound on both ends. Why would that change when you go to a pad with more bite?

More weight transfer when using a more aggressive front pad and sticky tires.

Less weight on the back tires.

Easier to lock up rear brakes.

Pete
May 30th, 2015, 08:39pm
More weight transfer when using a more aggressive front pad and sticky tires.

Less weight on the back tires.

Easier to lock up rear brakes.

This.

You are pushing the car beyond what it's designed to do "as a street" car, no matter how "sport" it is. Hence why some stuff will not react the same way obviously.

iandachef
May 30th, 2015, 10:18pm
So say your car is lower and much stiffer than stock like most track cars, in theory wouldn't this eliminate a lot of the pitch associated with hard braking? From what I've read in spec miata they want more rear brake bias so why would you put more pessure onto your brakes if they are already locking up?

mightymousetech
May 30th, 2015, 10:22pm
Making it stiffer will not change the weight transfer, only the reaction to the transfer. Making it lower will change it some.

Maybe they are terrible from the factory? Also, less likely to lock up the rears on RWD compared to FWD.

FWD, you might as well take off the rear brakes. ;)

raggedrabbit
May 31st, 2015, 03:25pm
It is much safer to have the front brakes lock up as well, so you would expect some extra bias to the front. Most drivers, even noobs at the track, dont brake anywhere near the limit, so behaviour at lock up is probably less an issue. I know my truck has plus size brakes on the back for esc, those secondary functions shoupd be considered as well.

GoP-Demon
May 31st, 2015, 04:09pm
Heh. I've always wondered was there a car with the center of gravity at or below the axle? The weight transfer characteristics would be all backwards.


And for tires I've always wondered why wider is more grip. I always think back to the basic normal force times the coefficient but contact area doesn't change the grip in that. I guess I should look at the tire treads in a more complex matter? Especially for turning? Also heat dissipation?

dbg
May 31st, 2015, 04:19pm
Heh. I've always wondered was there a car with the center of gravity at or below the axle? The weight transfer characteristics would be all backwards.

It would be truly weird to drive a vehicle like that! It would lean the wrong way in corners.

The Tesla Model S has most of its weight at the bottom, in the battery pack, so it is probably possible to have built it with the center of gravity below the axle. Probably even more possible with the Model X.

raggedrabbit
May 31st, 2015, 04:41pm
You are confusing the axle height with the roll center. If your cog was below your roll center the car would roll to the inside as centripetal force pulled to the outside.. However that probably wouldnt be very beneficial. Cars with the cog below the axle, ssuck as f1 cars, often push their roll center below ground to obtain their desired roll moment. This may even be the case with your car. The roll center is basically the point on the centerline of the car which is intersected by a line connected from the point of contact to the instantaneous center of the suspension linkage. Many linkages have the rc at ground level. Anecdotally, for you cg below rc thought experiment, it is a bad idea to place your cg at the roll center because without weight transfer the car will have much lower lateral grip.

Which sort of touches on your next question. The formulas for friction dont really suggest any benefit for a wider tire but the data is very clear... more tire gives more lateral grip. There are lots of thepries and probably plenty of proper research on it as well. Explanations vary from more mechanical friction (tires/asphalt arent smooth and tires conform... not smooth surfaces like the friction formulas assume), or it could be due to more even loading due to aspect ratio and consistancy in pressure during transients. There are a few tires that share either compounds or tread or vice versa, and they are usually close in performance per the size. Convrrsely, tire for various speciallized uses have many dofferent treads, so I would say that is a smaller issue. Most of the treads are designed to shed water or be quieter, and performance wise, they are the same running in either direction hence area is probably the biggest.deciding factor. Note that some tires with the same tread or compound might have diffent construction as welll... i.e. heavier sidewalls or more plies.

Life is too short and this shit is way more complicated than it is worth. Just buy what works and enjoy. This is like the synthetic oil debate... you can measure a million different ways and short of some piece of mind, none of it males any damn difference because the leaders have been trying to one up each other so long they are all pitching the same swill.

Sorry if the above is riddles with errors, Im posting from my phone amd it doesnt like Tapatalk (Im in browser)

raggedrabbit
May 31st, 2015, 04:47pm
More to the point, it would be very easy to locate the roll center above the cg on most vehicles... there is a good reason why this isnt a thing. I bet some lifted trucks with mcpherson front suspension end up with a roll center near the cg, as the control arms point to the IC in that arrangement.

Veyronkiller
May 31st, 2015, 06:58pm
Making it stiffer will not change the weight transfer, only the reaction to the transfer. Making it lower will change it some.

Maybe they are terrible from the factory? Also, less likely to lock up the rears on RWD compared to FWD.
FWD, you might as well take off the rear brakes. ;)

Stiffening will most definately reduce weight transfer. This is why the FWD guys use steel cables to prevent the front end from rising the rear end to dip under acceleration on a smooth track. That's to prevent weight transfer and keep weight on their front wheels.

mightymousetech
May 31st, 2015, 08:38pm
It would be truly weird to drive a vehicle like that! It would lean the wrong way in corners.

The Tesla Model S has most of its weight at the bottom, in the battery pack, so it is probably possible to have built it with the center of gravity below the axle. Probably even more possible with the Model X.

Citroen 2CV were designed like this in cornering. They would lean the wrong way when going around corners.

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 05:32pm
has anyone ever used EBC yellow stuff? very limited options for S4 track compounds on stock calipers.

karmaboy
August 5th, 2015, 05:41pm
has anyone ever used EBC yellow stuff? very limited options for S4 track compounds on stock calipers.

Using Redstuff on the Mini...more awesome than stock. That's all I can say for now.

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 05:45pm
Looks like if I shell out the big bucks I can get carbotech. They recommend xp20 since the car is a pig!

wing
August 5th, 2015, 05:47pm
Fuck no. Yellow stuff on neon suck. No bite.

Xp10 or 12 is more than enough

mightymousetech
August 5th, 2015, 05:58pm
has anyone ever used EBC yellow stuff? very limited options for S4 track compounds on stock calipers.

Gah, no!

Pete
August 5th, 2015, 06:01pm
EBC does not have a good rep.

I daily drive HPS on the STi, good bite, some dust, i like them. I was able to do a few laps before they could not take it. Depending on how much track/how fast you want to go it could be an option before jumping into the more aggressive pads too.

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 06:18pm
My car weighs 4000 pounds I need something heavy duty plus better fluid and lines

Pete
August 5th, 2015, 06:43pm
My STi is +-3400, you most likely have bigger brakes too than i have.

The more aggressive you go for pads, the more chances of squealing and cold rotor wear. Its hard to find a balance.

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 06:57pm
I think I'll have to try the carbotech, just sucks that you need dedicated rotors for them

wing
August 5th, 2015, 07:01pm
No need for dedicated rotors. I have xp12 on ISF, car is heavy stops on a dime. With sticky street tires they lock up instantly.

Just get xp10 or 12 put them on and call it a day. Unless you are going slicks and racing you will be fine

GiJoe_
August 5th, 2015, 07:24pm
No need for dedicated rotors. I have xp12 on ISF, car is heavy stops on a dime. With sticky street tires they lock up instantly.

Just get xp10 or 12 put them on and call it a day. Unless you are going slicks and racing you will be fine

How do you put up with the noise!? I tired for two weeks then said this is nuts and swap pads now.

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 07:26pm
No need for dedicated rotors. I have xp12 on ISF, car is heavy stops on a dime. With sticky street tires they lock up instantly.

Just get xp10 or 12 put them on and call it a day. Unless you are going slicks and racing you will be fine
You didn't resurface your rotors? Carbotech is just telling lies about their transfer layer?

wing
August 5th, 2015, 07:26pm
Can't hear them with the windows up. It's a Lexus

wing
August 5th, 2015, 07:28pm
You didn't resurface your rotors? Carbotech is just telling lies about their transfer layer?
They all say that shit. Just drive the damn car. It will take a little longer to bed them in and rub the layer off but it will be fine.

You coming out on the 9th? Maybe I'll bring ISF you come I make you eat dash.

Jethro
August 5th, 2015, 07:40pm
They all say that shit. Just drive the damn car. It will take a little longer to bed them in and rub the layer off but it will be fine.

You coming out on the 9th? Maybe I'll bring ISF you come I make you eat dash.

Lol. Eat dash. "What are those marks?"

tellum
August 5th, 2015, 08:45pm
Don't do carbotech if you hate noise

wing
August 5th, 2015, 09:11pm
Love me some squeal.

Co-workers says "Hey James, I think you need new brakes?"

No man, they are new.. puzzled looks lol

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 09:13pm
At least on an ISF you can just pass it off on sports car brakes.

iandachef
August 5th, 2015, 09:13pm
Stock pads on s4 squeal

Rainey94
August 6th, 2015, 01:52am
Had HP+ on my RSX up until a few weeks ago. Now have the new HPS 5.0s and really like them! Not as much initial bite as the +s but still pretty great for my light car. We will see how they fair when they are out on the track. Also do not miss the OC Bus levels of brake squeal.

tellum
August 6th, 2015, 08:05am
HPS are a great street pad for occasional track use. Had them on my last 3 cars.

Blind
August 6th, 2015, 08:46am
couldn't run EBC reds without warping rotors. hp ceramics is what I ran.

mightymousetech
August 6th, 2015, 08:48am
Most likely you had pad transfer, not warped. Never seen a rotor warp due to pad choice. The HP ceramic are OK, they handled the heat OK, very little bite, and if you use them in the winter, you are going to have a bad time. Had them on my Mazda3 for a while, in the winter they were downright scary. Had to drag them on off ramps if I wanted to be able to stop at the end of the ramp.

Blind
August 6th, 2015, 08:52am
They were warped, confirmed by my mechanic. I killed 2 sets after replacing the 1st under warranty. went to HP after that...

ceramics were fine on my wrx in the winter.

dbg
August 6th, 2015, 09:03am
HPS are probably fine on a light car, but were not really adequate for a G37.

Personally, I would use DTC60 - they don't squeal like a banshee like the HP+, have more bite, and handle high temperatures much better. I've run them on the S2000 and the Corvette.

For winter I'd just flip back to street pads, or use HPS.

1Morelap
August 6th, 2015, 09:07am
they should sell brake pads by lap times, not temp ranges.

Which lap time are you ? - insert pad here.

Pete
August 6th, 2015, 09:12am
[emoji14]ound:

Would not work, too many people would get into the "you should not need brakes, you are not fast enough" category... Me included.

wing
August 6th, 2015, 09:14am
Fast guys don't use brakes?

mightymousetech
August 6th, 2015, 09:31am
Fast guys don't use brakes?

Exactly. The slower you are, the more brakes you are using. Stop slowing down for corners, problem solved. ;)

NoLimits Autoparts
August 6th, 2015, 09:31am
couldn't run EBC reds without warping rotors. hp ceramics is what I ran.


That makes no mechanical sense what so ever. Warping is caused by improper heating, nothing more or less. Take any piece of metal and heat one side, and it will bend/curve. Probably had a pad that was binding a bit, or dragging for whatever reason. That is what caused the warpage, not the brand of pad.

Blind
August 6th, 2015, 09:33am
no Mike , you and i argued about it a lot then back then too. roch fixed me up with a proper combo and was running great.

quite a few subaru guys had same issue with EBC reds. and when I contacted them they even recommend I only use a slotted rotor with that pad.

whatever. no fucks given here. car is long gone. argue all you want, I trust rochs experience here.

luker
August 6th, 2015, 09:35am
Fast guys in slow cars don't use brakes?

Fixed for you.

wing
August 6th, 2015, 09:41am
Mostly true.

Fast car and & driver, no brakes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsFukdzh5wg

NoLimits Autoparts
August 6th, 2015, 09:41am
no Mike , you and i argued about it a lot then back then too. roch fixed me up with a proper combo and was running great.

quite a few subaru guys had same issue with EBC reds. and when I contacted them they even recommend I only use a slotted rotor with that pad.

whatever. no fucks given here. car is long gone. argue all you want, I trust rochs experience here.


Lol, alrighty then

Jethro
August 6th, 2015, 09:46am
Mostly true.

Fast car and & driver, no brakes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsFukdzh5wg

that start was fucking brutal.

wing
August 6th, 2015, 09:48am
Ha the spins or the pace car stopping on track. DO NOT STOP pace car on track with formula cars.

Jethro
August 6th, 2015, 09:49am
Ha the spins or the pace car stopping on track. DO NOT STOP pace car on track with formula cars.

both. and the giant gap on the start.

luker
August 6th, 2015, 09:51am
Mostly true.

Fast car and & driver, no brakes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsFukdzh5wg

He uses brakes HEAVILY in several corners at the track.

mightymousetech
August 6th, 2015, 10:08am
My point is, the difference in a fast lap and a slow lap with the same car is the amount they are slowing down for the corners.

A faster lap, with the same car, will be easier on the brakes.

wing
August 6th, 2015, 10:11am
both. and the giant gap on the start.
Gap is intended, it's a double start for the F2000 / Radical races.

But there were only three F2000s so looks doubly dumb.

petawawarace
August 7th, 2015, 06:55pm
My point is, the difference in a fast lap and a slow lap with the same car is the amount they are slowing down for the corners.

A faster lap, with the same car, will be easier on the brakes.

Sorry but I don't agree with this. While sometimes it may be effective to use less brake, a fast driver will make more efficient use of the brakes. If a car has a certain amount of lateral grip in said corner, you can only go through it at a certain speed. Assuming the same speed entering the braking zone, the lap time difference is only based on how quickly speed is reduced to maximum cornering speed. Perhaps the faster driver is on the brakes for a shorter period of time, but the energy needed would be the same.
Id also argue that a faster driver will get on the throttle sooner, reach a faster entry speed and actually have to brake more (more energy). Aero has a lot to do with braking performance too. They say one of the biggest differences in F1 drivers is their ability to modulate braking based on downforce. Higher speed means more brake pressure, but you need to decrease pressure as the speed (and downforce/grip) decreases. This is why brake pressure sensors are used on many racecars.

I put the Yellowstuff pads on because I got them for virtually nothing. They are better than replacement stock pads but not much, and they are noisy.

iandachef
August 7th, 2015, 07:17pm
So from doing more research it sounds like most people who do track days with an s4 upgrade the front brakes from the sliding single piston caliper to a mono block 4/6 piston BBK. Obviously I'm no Vettel here... my worry would be the brakes overheating and turning to mush and then me driving my fancy car into a guardrail. I can get floating rotors that work with the stock calipers, change the lines to stainless and upgrade the pads to something like an xp12 or xp20, would there be any merit to doing that or is the cooling capacity of the brakes solely dependant on rotor size?

petawawarace
August 7th, 2015, 07:33pm
Cooling is almost solely determined by airflow over the brakes. Rotor size, number of pistons etc only really help performance. The bigger rotors may dissipate heat slightly better but they will generate lots more heat too. Excessive heat will boil the brake fluid first. Upgrade your fluid to a dot 5.1 fluid. (Find out what fluid is in your car first. If it's dot 5, do not change to dot 5.1 as dot 5 is silicone based and not compatible with dot 3,4, or 5.1) Airflow is the next option to reduce the chance of boiling. Performance rotors generally have better cooling fins, but ducting to the brakes is good too. Hope this helps.

mightymousetech
August 7th, 2015, 07:35pm
Sorry but I don't agree with this. While sometimes it may be effective to use less brake, a fast driver will make more efficient use of the brakes. If a car has a certain amount of lateral grip in said corner, you can only go through it at a certain speed. Assuming the same speed entering the braking zone, the lap time difference is only based on how quickly speed is reduced to maximum cornering speed. Perhaps the faster driver is on the brakes for a shorter period of time, but the energy needed would be the same.
Id also argue that a faster driver will get on the throttle sooner, reach a faster entry speed and actually have to brake more (more energy). Aero has a lot to do with braking performance too. They say one of the biggest differences in F1 drivers is their ability to modulate braking based on downforce. Higher speed means more brake pressure, but you need to decrease pressure as the speed (and downforce/grip) decreases. This is why brake pressure sensors are used on many racecars.

I put the Yellowstuff pads on because I got them for virtually nothing. They are better than replacement stock pads but not much, and they are noisy.

What I'm saying, a faster driver will carry more speed through the corners. That is pretty much the only difference between lap times. Anybody can hit the gas full throttle.

We had a set of yellow on our chump car, they lasted half a race. Switched to real track pads and they last 3 or 4 races.

mightymousetech
August 7th, 2015, 07:40pm
So from doing more research it sounds like most people who do track days with an s4 upgrade the front brakes from the sliding single piston caliper to a mono block 4/6 piston BBK. Obviously I'm no Vettel here... my worry would be the brakes overheating and turning to mush and then me driving my fancy car into a guardrail. I can get floating rotors that work with the stock calipers, change the lines to stainless and upgrade the pads to something like an xp12 or xp20, would there be any merit to doing that or is the cooling capacity of the brakes solely dependant on rotor size?

Good pads that can take the heat, some good fluid and you are good to go.

petawawarace
August 7th, 2015, 07:45pm
What I'm saying, a faster driver will carry more speed through the corners. That is pretty much the only difference between lap times. Anybody can hit the gas full throttle.

We had a set of yellow on our chump car, they lasted half a race. Switched to real track pads and they last 3 or 4 races.

Im not trying to argue, honest, but getting through the corner as fast as you can is only good on some corners. Very often, going a little slower through a corner means a better run onto a straight. 2mph faster exiting can often mean 4-6mph faster at the end of the straight, and that makes up way for time than loosing a little in the corner. The difficulty is figuring out which corners this works for and which it doesn't.

mightymousetech
August 7th, 2015, 07:51pm
Im not trying to argue, honest, but getting through the corner as fast as you can is only good on some corners. Very often, going a little slower through a corner means a better run onto a straight. 2mph faster exiting can often mean 4-6mph faster at the end of the straight, and that makes up way for time than loosing a little in the corner. The difficulty is figuring out which corners this works for and which it doesn't.

Very true, I was just speaking as a very general concept.

dbg
August 7th, 2015, 08:41pm
I'm with petawawa. Good cornering means faster on the exit, so you carry that extra speed down the straight. That's how you gain time. You exit faster, so you hit the braking zone faster. If anything you might have to do a little more braking to hit the right apex speed. But it's small differences, even with 1/2 mV^2.

The real problem for newbies is overbraking - that's overheating your brakes and making you slow. Once you get past that I don't see how you can reduce braking much further.

Of course the first time I drove my Vette at Calabogie I boiled the brakes. Partly that was inexperience with the car, and I did work on improving my driving... but I also did two things to improve cooling. First, I switched to larger rotors. There's really no more heat involved because I've got the same brake pads, the same grip limits with the tires, and so I'm dissipating the same amount of energy. More surface area means more cooling. The effect can be pretty significant.

The other thing I did was add brake ducts. Since I did the rotors and the brake ducts I haven't had any problems at all with the brakes.

mightymousetech
August 7th, 2015, 08:50pm
The real problem for newbies is overbraking - that's overheating your brakes and making you slow. Once you get past that I don't see how you can reduce braking much further.


THAT'S MY POINT!

Gah, fuck.

I need s drink.

Jethro
August 7th, 2015, 08:54pm
THAT'S MY POINT!

Gah, fuck.

I need s drink.

I will send you fucks too

mightymousetech
August 7th, 2015, 08:55pm
I will send you fucks too

:cheers:

dbg
August 7th, 2015, 09:00pm
THAT'S MY POINT!

Gah, fuck.

I need s drink.

Go have a beer.

mightymousetech
August 7th, 2015, 09:30pm
Go have a beer.

Don't worry, three steps ahead of you. ;)

bunta
August 8th, 2015, 05:17pm
EBC is poo

mightymousetech
August 8th, 2015, 05:49pm
EBC is poo

Had the EBC green, then yellow, then red in the smart. Red were not bad, but it was just a smart. Had all the momentum of a four cheese sandwich in my digestive system.

Jethro
August 8th, 2015, 06:45pm
And boosted by your farts.

mightymousetech
August 8th, 2015, 07:00pm
1morebrap

karmaboy
August 9th, 2015, 09:24am
<hat backwards>
EBC Reds look hella cool with my ghetto blue calipers. Good for 10hp at least.
</hat backwards>
32404

Pete
August 9th, 2015, 09:14pm
Pitlane smelled like cheap brake pads all day...

It was awesome.

iandachef
August 9th, 2015, 09:16pm
Oh man some people were just roasting them out there

inverted
August 9th, 2015, 09:34pm
http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/2436667/kurtfire.gif

Pete
August 9th, 2015, 09:46pm
LOL

Pretty much :)

wing
August 9th, 2015, 10:22pm
Smelled like rotten eggs on rocky road for like 1/2 the afternoon, was odd.

dbg
August 9th, 2015, 11:37pm
Pitlane smelled like cheap brake pads all day...

It was awesome.

Oh yeah. Sometimes from the car in front... sometimes from the car I was in!

Rainey94
August 10th, 2015, 11:33am
HPS 5.0 Pad review
Wing inspired review: They slow the car down. They make smoke. Not as awesome as HP+ but still better then OEM. No bus noises.
Conclusion: Performed as expected.

Pete
August 10th, 2015, 11:35am
HPS 5.0 Pad review
Wing inspired review: They slow the car down. They make smoke. Not as awesome as HP+ but still better then OEM. No bus noises.
Conclusion: Performed as expected.
Anyone i spoke with said they are a small step above hps with less brake dust and good street/cold bite. Lots of good comments. Obviously not a track pad but a good street one.

tellum
August 10th, 2015, 11:56am
Good to know, thanks.

NoLimits Autoparts
August 10th, 2015, 11:58am
Yep, That and the new Street/Race are getting great feedback so far. Glad we have them.

mightymousetech
August 10th, 2015, 12:08pm
Yep, That and the new Street/Race are getting great feedback so far. Glad we have them.

Was wondering about the street/race compound. Looking for something street friendly (unlike Wing, I care about noise) that can see a couple lapping days a year.

Pete
August 10th, 2015, 12:11pm
Was wondering about the street/race compound. Looking for something street friendly (unlike Wing, I care about noise) that can see a couple lapping days a year.
I wanted to try them on the STi bit did not find much details on them other than a few reviews in the US.

I now know of someone that runs them on his Civic Si and he likes them alot, waiting to see if he gets squealing issues now, if they stay ok after a few days/weeks off track of daily driving, i'll spring for a set.

mightymousetech
August 10th, 2015, 12:12pm
I wanted to try them on the STi bit did not find much details on them other than a few reviews in the US.

I now know of someone that runs them on his Civic Si and he likes them alot, waiting to see if he gets squealing issues now, if they stay ok after a few days/weeks off track of daily driving, i'll spring for a set.

:like:

NoLimits Autoparts
August 10th, 2015, 12:16pm
Was wondering about the street/race compound. Looking for something street friendly (unlike Wing, I care about noise) that can see a couple lapping days a year.

I think it will still be prone to squealing under light load, but every application is different.

Bartron
August 11th, 2015, 01:45am
I'm going XP10 or XP12. My Akebono ceramics were a great street/occasional track pad, but I'm going on 9 events this year, and they're used up.

I drive a car with a Coroplast sunroof and a crazy carpet rear bumper repair, so I don't give any fucks about noise or dust.

inverted
August 11th, 2015, 09:17am
XP12 on the BMW? You running rcomps? Is the car street driven?

I run XP8 on the Miata with RS3s, but it's also like 2400lbs. They seem to be just right. Only 160km/h on Rocky Road but I've turned a 2:38.

Bartron
August 11th, 2015, 05:52pm
Yeah BMW is 2800 or so. New tires are imminent, may be R-compounds or RS3s or Rivals. I hit about 150 at the end of RR, best time on all seasons is a 2:45 or so.

Anyways, I was having trouble getting the Carbotechs in a hurry so I'm just gonna do HP+ and see how it goes.

iandachef
August 11th, 2015, 05:56pm
Yeah BMW is 2800 or so. New tires are imminent, may be R-compounds or RS3s or Rivals. I hit about 150 at the end of RR, best time on all seasons is a 2:45 or so.

Anyways, I was having trouble getting the Carbotechs in a hurry so I'm just gonna do HP+ and see how it goes.
That's the problem with carbos... hp+ have been good to me with rbf660 fluid

inverted
August 11th, 2015, 05:58pm
You might be happy with the HP+ for a while. They are a lot cheaper and I found them to be a good value. I ended up wanting more for the GT series. Longer/harder sessions (phrasing...) and I wanted emergency stop capability.

inverted
August 11th, 2015, 06:00pm
That's the problem with carbos... hp+ have been good to me with rbf660 fluid
I ordered my carbos from Frank Ewald. Great service but $$$$$. I wish MANL would become a dealer so I can give him my money instead!

Manimillion
August 11th, 2015, 06:18pm
Carbotech's are awesome. But if you are worried about noise and dust, you should look elsewhere. But then again, just wax/seal the wheels, you can get rid of the dust easily. If you are lazy to do it yourself, get Andre to wax/seal the wheels for you ;)

NoLimits Autoparts
August 11th, 2015, 06:21pm
Ive checked with every performance warehouse in Canada to take on Carbotech, not one wants to do it for some reason. Sucks, because we do get calls for it, but I still get asked for Hawk 9 out of 10 times.