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DVDr
December 3rd, 2014, 05:59pm
Planning on going to the AISA academy next year so I can tag along some of the evening bogie days.

Price went up for 2015

St Eustache 3 day - April 17th to the 19th - $ 600 ( lots of cheddar , but worth it right ? )
Calabogie 3 day - May 1st to the 3rd - $ 1000


Anyone else planning on going ?

Mario
December 3rd, 2014, 07:12pm
Where can we get more info?

Jethro
December 3rd, 2014, 07:32pm
http://www.perryautolaval.com/en/ase-lapping-club/aisa-academy/

1Morelap
December 3rd, 2014, 07:46pm
http://www.perryautolaval.com/eventdocs/AISA-CMP2015.pdf
https://www.facebook.com/PerryPerformance/photos/a.487951522605.264783.361828812605/10152480448357606/?type=1&theater

Mario
December 3rd, 2014, 07:55pm
Its not really a good deal I'm afraid. Not cheap

3 days in a row learning to dive bomb. The 2nd and 3rd day are going to be very long.

Its funny that every year, on their 3rd day at Bogie ,some of these guys register to race in our GT race and practice their new found dive bombing skills without grasping the 'if you have someone faster behind you, you have to point him by rule'

1Morelap
December 3rd, 2014, 08:08pm
You can get a race license by completing it.

Mario
December 3rd, 2014, 08:31pm
You can or you get? That's a world of difference

wing
December 3rd, 2014, 08:33pm
Can get if they think you are ok

raggedrabbit
December 3rd, 2014, 10:10pm
Better off at the MCO/BMW schools. It's a good experience if you've never done it though. Sign up for one, do the other if you like.

DVDr
December 3rd, 2014, 10:39pm
Better off at the MCO/BMW schools. It's a good experience if you've never done it though. Sign up for one, do the other if you like.


Info ? , I thought the $ 500 was a lot, then went up to $ 600 .

Info on MCO / BMW

wing
December 3rd, 2014, 10:49pm
MCO is $300 I believe.... BMW is around $400 or so?

GoP-Demon
December 3rd, 2014, 10:51pm
Last year MCO did 4 days $350 each day for the whole day 7 30 minute sessions with instructor. 3 out of 4 days where on a weekday.

http://www.mco.org/cms/index.php/disciplines/lapping

Seems to be most cost efficient.

I12XLR8
December 3rd, 2014, 10:56pm
If you're just looking to do some lapping stick with MCO. As long as you're listening and not dangerous you'll be able to start lapping right afterwards. Greg and his guys will judge your skills usually in the first evening and decide on your ability to go solo.

Mario
December 3rd, 2014, 10:58pm
ASE has a much different instructions compare to MCO & BMW club.
Its more about racing and have a no point by passing rule

DVDr
December 3rd, 2014, 11:15pm
So what is recommended ? . Best bang for buck . I personally don't care about getting race license.

Mario
December 3rd, 2014, 11:19pm
MCO & BMW are much safer and very good value. ASE French guys are a little crazier, not that they're not safe. it's just very different

I12XLR8
December 3rd, 2014, 11:21pm
MCO. Gets you on the track faster, and for less. Then 1morelap it all summer. Then the next year you'll get itchy and add the GT series to your lapping and really be happy

GoP-Demon
December 3rd, 2014, 11:21pm
Wait till the track opens, see the calender and then see which BMW or MCO or AISA day fits best. No price or date is even out yet. I never went to a BMW one because usually the minimum was both Saturday and Sunday.

sb_915
December 4th, 2014, 10:40am
Wow...

So as someone who has taken the MCO school, the BMW school, and the AISA school (I now instruct at AISA as well), here are my opinions:


MCO: teaches you to lap safely, learn the limits of your car, point-by passing

BMW: ^same as above, a bit more classroom instruction, a bit stricter all around, different things (late passing, follow the leader, offline stuff, etc.), point-by passing. If you have experience, they don't care. If you have experience with BMW school, then you get bumped up. I took this school my 3rd year lapping and they put me with the newbs - I knew the track better than my instructor (he told me himself), and while I did get to lap and get different opinions, I missed 2 days of advanced driving before they finally bumped me up.

AISA: teaches you to lap safely but goes further and also introduces you to racecraft. No point-by rules, but you have to pass in dedicated zone. CONTRARY to what Mario says, dive-bombing is NOT allowed: the pass needs to be completed before the braking zone. The no-point by passing also makes you focus on looking around you more, because there just might be a car coming up. No passing also teaches you to plan & set up your passes ahead of time, instead of tailgating the car in front through the corner so he sees you. They run two groups: beginner/intermediate, and intermediate/advanced. When you sign up, you have the option of applying for your race licence. We watch you even harder if that's the case - vision, predictability, courteousness, car control, etc. If you're a beginner, don't expect to get you race licence certificate unless you really blow everyone away - there is just too much to learn. There is also theory classes and a test (flags, etc). AISA rotates 2-4 instructors in your car so you get different perspectives.

Overall: AISA gives you the biggest room to progress, but if you've never done it, it could be overwhelming. The main thing to remember, is you go at your own pace. Is it expensive, yeah, but it's still worth it IMO. I used to instruct at both the ASE and CMP days, last year and probably this year will only do CMP.

If you are unsure of the commitment, do an MCO day, and then go to AISA. I would skip BMW as IMO I found that one the most expensive with the least amount of gain.

Jethro
December 4th, 2014, 11:40am
Further to what sb_600 said....I've worked as a corner marshal during AISA school weekends....they teach the students flags. novel concept I know.

They do flag drills - waved/steady/FCC yellows, blacks, reds, etc etc. they drill it multiple times. we tracked cars who didnt get it first time around and hit them with flag combos until they got it 100%.

lots more than driving lines. lots of guys would benefit from this type of training.

raggedrabbit
December 4th, 2014, 11:46am
I spent my second year with AISA in the noob group because my car was too slow (I asked to get bumped). Waste of time imo, there is no racecraft on that side of things.

It was great the first year I was out though. No love lost as a lapping school. It's a good deal for the track time.

Edit: props for Jethro, yeah the flag stuff from AISA was good.

dbg
December 4th, 2014, 11:47am
I've only ever done the BMW school at Tremblant - mainly because that's one of the few ways to get in there. Yes, they don't move you up in the run groups until they see your improvement. I went two years ago when I was very much a newb, and again this summer. Despite asking about my experience level they went with my previous instructor's review and put me in the newbie run group (well actually I don't think they let any true newbs in that weekend - everyone had some track experience). The first thing my instructor said after my first session was that I was in the wrong run group; he asked to have me moved but I guess the groups were pretty full. Wasn't really a problem; after a couple of sessions most of the drivers were putting their hand out the window as soon as they saw me, and by the second day most of the other drivers were improving a lot so the speed differential wasn't as bad. Sunday afternoon some people started leaving early so they went open lapping for the signed-off drivers, and I was able to get a bunch of clean laps.

The event I was at was run by the Boston BMW club. Yes they are stricter and do some things differently, but I will say that they have really good instructors and it was a great experience. Not sure I'd bother with BMW at Calabogie from what I've heard, but I like the way they run it at Tremblant.

MCO is a great place to start out. Well-run events with strictly enforced rules so it's very safe, but the rules are very reasonable (whereas BMW has a few over-the-top rules IMHO, especially relating to convertibles).

AISA sounds interesting... will have to try it.

wing
December 4th, 2014, 11:48am
From the sounds of it I'll never do a BMW school cause I'm not going to stick in a beginner group for 2 days sucking my thumb lol.

AISA school is good if you want a license but as a beginner I think MCO or BMW offers a more relaxed atmosphere that is more about fun and safety and less about performance.

Jethro
December 4th, 2014, 11:50am
I spent my second year with AISA in the noob group because my car was too slow (I asked to get bumped). Waste of time imo, there is no racecraft on that side of things.

It was great the first year I was out though. No love lost as a lapping school. It's a good deal for the track time.

Edit: props for Jethro, yeah the flag stuff from AISA was good.

I was in corner 20 on the AISA weekend you did. Slick inside move on that Civic brah.

raggedrabbit
December 4th, 2014, 11:54am
I was in corner 20 on the AISA weekend you did. Slick inside move on that Civic brah.

Thanks boss.

Jethro
December 4th, 2014, 11:59am
Thanks boss.

no probs.

Mechs02
December 4th, 2014, 01:53pm
MCO + 1morelap this year. AISA and GT series next year. AISA will give you the most race craft, GT series, will make you explore your limits like never before....

sb_915
December 4th, 2014, 01:56pm
MCO + 1morelap this year. AISA and GT series next year. AISA will give you the most race craft, GT series, will make you explore your limits like never before....

that's a good plan right thur

raggedrabbit
December 4th, 2014, 02:21pm
that's a good plan right thur

+1

Mario
December 4th, 2014, 03:21pm
Where I learned the most was with the BMW club of Quebec at Tremblant. Like Doug said, they don't make it easy for you to move up, but I think the real problem is there stupid registration form, which only ask you about the lapping schools you've done, and not your overall experience has a driver. I think GT racing and being an instructor changes things. They do have high standards for performance driving compare to the MCO


Anyway, 2 years ago I got this fucking asshole has an instructor, Sebastien, the guy simply thought my driving was shit, and he kept yelling at me the whole fucking day. This was a 2 day event and I almost told him to fuck off, I was so pissed to have paid for that shit, but the next morning everything he was screaming at me about, I was doing perfectly. Oddly enough, Iíve never learned so much before or since. It completely changed the way I drive. The guy had 20 years of real racing experience though, but still, has an instructor, you should make sure your student has fun

So the moral of the story is, one day, one instructor will make a huge difference, regardless of the club.

sb_915
December 4th, 2014, 03:43pm
So the moral of the story is, one day, one instructor will make a huge difference, regardless of the club.

Another plus about the AISA school - you get a variety of instructors throughout the weekend so you learn a lot of different perspectives.

Mario
December 4th, 2014, 03:59pm
Another plus about the AISA school - you get a variety of instructors throughout the weekend so you learn a lot of different perspectives.
Don't get me wrong, I'm very interested by what ASE can teach me.

In all fairness, my previous comment was based on my first experience I had with the group. It happened at GT race I did a couple of years ago, right after an ASE lapping day and some of these guys who learned dive bombing that day (that's what I was told), also registered and raced with us. The whole fucking race, I was stuck on the bumper of a black fuckin Civic, who wouldn't point me by and behind me I had his friend, dive bombing me every chance he got. The good part of this shitty story is, I ended up first of GT2. Lol

That same year, I went with you guys at Mosport at the end of the season. I had a great time. There is something much better with their no point by rule. Everybody is kinda more aware and nobody wants to be that asshole, so it all works out really good. That's why I want to run with them again. Its special

GoP-Demon
December 4th, 2014, 04:17pm
Is this dive bombing?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8sH6QLy_tWI&feature=youtu.be

Mario
December 4th, 2014, 04:18pm
Yep
It's out braking your opponent and taking the inside of a curve.

It's dangerous because 2 cars at high speeds, driving 10/10 are taking 2 different lines coming into the corner, resulting in very different apex and exit so the chances of collisions are high, but that's one of the ways race cars pass each other.

That guy in the video wasn't successful because he ended up in the grass though

sb_915
December 4th, 2014, 04:34pm
Yep
It's out braking your opponent and taking the inside of a curve.

It's dangerous because 2 cars at high speeds, driving 10/10 are taking 2 different lines coming into the corner, resulting in very different apex and exit so the chances of collisions are high, but that's one of the ways race cars pass each other.

IMO, and I could be wrong:


Dive-bombing is when you don't have room to pass anymore, and you take the inside line in the corner, forcing the other car to adjust their line. Basically if the lead car has started their turn into the apex, and the passing car squeezes in.

There is a difference between dive-boming and late passing - late passing is a braking zone pass - you get up side-by-side with the car during braking (before any turning is initiated), and therefore "take" the line away from the outside car by outbraking.

However, often in racing the lines are blurred between these two.

GOP - that video you posted, IMO, would have been a late pass (yes the outside guy started his turn in, but it was really just setting up the car at that point). lead car left the door WIDE open and didn't have to change his turn-in at all. That being said, the passing car was too eager and couldn't brake enough lol.

Mario
December 4th, 2014, 04:39pm
You are right that the term 'dive bombing' is associated with being an asshole. When its properly done, you don’t call it that. You call it a great pass. The guy in the video was good enough not to affect the other car's trajectory, but failed, so IMO it was a dive bomb. Lol

Mario
December 4th, 2014, 04:51pm
Dive-bombing is when you don't have room to pass anymore, and you take the inside line in the corner, forcing the other car to adjust their line. Basically if the lead car has started their turn into the apex, and the passing car squeezes in.

This to the extreme is T-Boning, right?

luker
December 4th, 2014, 05:04pm
That pass was clean, if not properly executed.

Dive-bombing is when you know going in that you cannot stop in time and yet still choose to brake late on the inside of corner. Always involves contact, unless the driver being passed is super vigilant and sees you coming and brakes harder to avoid a collision.

In the rules for almost all forms of non-professional racing it is up to the person making the pass to make sure it is safe. In fact several racing series have a 13/13 rule that basically states if you cause a collision you are on probation for 13 months, you cause a second one in that period your race license is suspended for 13 months. This helps keeps some of the hotheads from coming together and makes for better racing. We are after all not winning any money for making that pass "stick".

Having said all that, many of the Quebec racers have a reputation (maybe deserved, maybe not) for dive bombing others at our race Ontario events. Heck we still have some body work to fix on Rob's race car from the last Ted Powell he went to with it. He was on the inside half a car length ahead of the other car when that guy decided "now would be a good time to turn in". Frame and body work dented in about a 6 inches behind the driver's door. He did not realize that a car on slick can very easily out-brake a car on road tires. Also remember an incident when a car made a dive-bomb on one of our racers at the 2h45m mark of 3 hour race. The pass was in corner 5 at Mosport, the guy passing was just doing it to be a tool as he was passing a car that was not in his class at all. Disabled the car who had a 2nd place finish in class pretty much in the bag.

dbg
December 4th, 2014, 05:14pm
When I took the Bridgestone racing course, they taught us to do this. Completely legit pass if done correctly. IF.

Yes you outbrake them on the inside, and force them to slow down more and off line. If you do it properly you should "present" yourself so they know you're there. You then get inside and outbrake - but it's very important to position yourself correctly. You want to be far enough up that he can't turn in and cut you off, so he has no choice but to continue braking and taking a wider and slower corner. You get the apex, he ends up slower outside, you're in front.

If you overdo and get too far ahead then he can cut in behind you and catch you on the corner exit. The trick is to maintain your position relative to him so he's forced off line.

Obviously there is a risk of collision doing this - that's racing - but if you do it correctly you're in his face and he has to back off. So it's a completely legit pass and not excessively dangerous as long as you do it right and everyone has got their heads up. If you fuck it up then... not.

Jethro
December 4th, 2014, 06:54pm
Lurker...I remember that incident from Powell. That guy was raging forever.

sb_915
December 5th, 2014, 12:13am
lol, so basically what I said.

;)

sb_915
December 5th, 2014, 12:14am
This to the extreme is T-Boning, right?

maybe not full 90 degree, but contact, yes.

petawawarace
December 6th, 2014, 01:24pm
It really depends on what you are doing out on the track. Competetive racing is totally different than lapping days or even point-by "racing" (I've heard the term "lapping with a winner" used and I would agree). It really depends on the two cars as well. On lapping days you usually have a large performance difference. When we first started road racing (lapping) several times I had someone late pass at the end of a straight. It took several times for me to realize that although the pass seemed late to me, the other car had way better brakes, and it really wasn't that "late " for them. There are some cars in our libre series that I will give a late wave to because I know they can complete the pass safely. Others I wouldn't dare.

We started with the libre series and have really only lapped with that group. literally our first time on a road course (full size) was during a libre event. Nigel knew we both had lots of oval racing experience, and told us he would keep an eye on us. Can someone explain what the purpose of these schools are for? Being new to road racing, I don't really understand it all yet.

raggedrabbit
December 6th, 2014, 03:08pm
We started with the libre series and have really only lapped with that group. literally our first time on a road course (full size) was during a libre event. Nigel knew we both had lots of oval racing experience, and told us he would keep an eye on us. Can someone explain what the purpose of these schools are for? Being new to road racing, I don't really understand it all yet.

Mostly they get people used to the track and the rules of the road out there. You could maybe pick up some racecraft from ASE but your money is probably better spent just racing, and you don't have a passenger seat anyhow :D

petawawarace
December 6th, 2014, 04:08pm
Mostly they get people used to the track and the rules of the road out there. You could maybe pick up some racecraft from ASE but your money is probably better spent just racing, and you don't have a passenger seat anyhow :D

Thats what the wing is for!!!! Do some tracks/lapping days make you take this before running with them??

pyxen
December 6th, 2014, 09:33pm
Not usually the race schools, but some general HPDE yes.. 1morelap for one, which I'm happy about.

I12XLR8
December 7th, 2014, 01:13pm
Not usually the race schools, but some general HPDE yes.. 1morelap for one, which I'm happy about.

Very happy at this 'requirement' for 1morelap. Made sure I knew what I was doing before running myself and I feel comfortable out there with everyone knowing they've all been vetted