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t
September 23rd, 2011, 10:35am
Family,

doing some reading and came up with different ways to skin a cat.

are people going into Jacques (turn 2) and down shifting 4-3-2 (for my Turbo and other smaller displacement cars that need some RPMs) or are they braking and going 4-2?

this is applicable to all high speed -> sharpish corners -Temptation, Beak, Quarry

we can discuss Trail Braking and Heel-toe too, but i am wondering what people are doing for these spots for the slower corners...

thanx

word

t

Lizard King
September 23rd, 2011, 10:42am
I go 4 - 3 hit rumble strip on left side with both wheels, get on the gas ... BRRAAJAHAALAKLOOOOOEROROROOOOOO.... down SIR JOHN'A. [SCREAMING FUCK YA IN THE CAR.]

Lizard King
September 23rd, 2011, 10:44am
You don't say.

RandomHer0
September 23rd, 2011, 10:46am
Yeah 4th Gear all the way into turn 2, heel-toe to 3rd at the wall, bang... turn in, all the way out onto the turtles.

IMO done properly, this sets you up for flat out into 3-4.

RandomHer0
September 23rd, 2011, 10:47am
Paul, there's times when your just not funny. Its the trying hard that makes it that way.

GIF-PWR
September 23rd, 2011, 10:49am
sorry - back to gibberish thread I go.

awndray
September 23rd, 2011, 10:49am
Have you checked out the drivers guide?

http://forums.midnightruns.com/showthread.php?31784-New-drivers-guides-up-on-Bogie-website.

Mechs02
September 23rd, 2011, 10:50am
POW, right in the kisser.

wing
September 23rd, 2011, 10:52am
4-3 for me, if you need 2nd you're going too slow :P

I do a 5-4 going into kink usually.

figo
September 23rd, 2011, 10:55am
my gears are a little high and i'm just an amature driver so i keep my 3rd gear into 2 to 3, i find my second gear revs to high and get full boost then i have to counter steer my rear end trying to go to disneyland and my forth is too low and struggles getting up that tiny incline lol

sb_915
September 23rd, 2011, 10:57am
I'm 5th through turn one, brake while going across the track, heel-toe to 4th, then 3rd at the wall, turn in and touch the rumble strip.

Temptation - brake & downshift to 4th, turn in, second braking zone & downshift to third, turn in sharper for the cone, accel out.

Beak - 4 to 3, feather throttle, wait, wait, POWWWEEERRR out

Quarry 1: take 4-left in 5th, heavy braking and a quick double downshift 5-4-3.

check out this vid for deets - you can see my feet & my hands (see if you can spot where i left-foot brake ;) ):


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_aSoh8RjKI

Jethro
September 23rd, 2011, 11:04am
In my Honda I carry 4th all the way to my braking point along the wall, hit the brakes just enough to hit 3rd at about 6k rpm, sharp turn in, open up the wheel, hammer gas to top of hill letting the car drift right out to the left turtle. I stopped trying to get the car against the wall too quick coming out of turn 1... I just get it lined up straight along the wall for when I hit the brakes. I also stopped braking in turn 1, just a tap to set the car up.

The only turns I have tried trail braking are temptation when I don't use the school line, and 12a/b (beak) when i'm coming in too hot off of brow and the car starts to push.

schmoo
September 23rd, 2011, 02:48pm
Boosted with short gears here:

5th through kink
4th through 2, 3, and 4
5th on straight

I grab 3rd only for turn 14. Other than that, it's 4th and 5th.

Mechs02
September 23rd, 2011, 03:46pm
The whole track is 3rd and 4th for me. Down shift to 3rd in 2, in 4th before the exit of easy, redline in 4th by braking zone at the end of rocky road. Downshift again for temptation back in 4th by 9a, used to downshift in 10, now i hold out to 12, back to 4th by 15 (usually a short shift to run out ridge) depending on weather and tires, hold full bore through 4-left, or tap the brakes and load the front tires. Hard brake for quarry down shift to 3rd, and then up to 4th before i cross the start finish line. All Downshifts for me are heel-toe. I will also trail brake or lift for rotation in temptation.

t
September 23rd, 2011, 04:32pm
okay,

i defn need work AND i will re-ask my Q...

what are thoughts on consequitive (sp) down shifts....

for those going from 5th to 3rd ...do you skip 4th and just brake, or do you do a heel-toe 5th--4th--3rd...

i know i was passing some people those few days i rode with you guys.....but i guess it was not because of my speed in the corners!!!

thanx for the responses guys, all will be read..promise...

t

Jethro
September 23rd, 2011, 04:43pm
I don't know if this is the best way but it works for me:

I brake and skip to the gear I want to corner @. At the end of Rocky Road I'm in 5th, I take Mulligans in 3rd, I go from 5th to 3rd, and time the heel toe blip for when I scrub off speed, and start the downshift into 3rd just as I get to the last braking marker. I don't have any other places where I have to skip 2 gears...just going into Mulligans. Everything else is 3/2 or 4/3 for the most part. I had to keep pushing my speed in the corners until I found the point where I started to slide off the edge of the track. Am still finding time everywhere on the track. When I get faster in one section it has effects down the line in other corners...I enter the braking zones faster, which ends up with some interesting results at times.

tellum
September 23rd, 2011, 05:10pm
for those going from 5th to 3rd ...do you skip 4th and just brake, or do you do a heel-toe 5th--4th--3rd...
tI roll through each gear when downshifting. But if your car is torquey you may be quicker leaving it in 4th.

RandomHer0
September 23rd, 2011, 05:11pm
Same, I hit each gear, I dont like skipping, I feel like Im missing the gate if I do it. Just feels weird.

wing
September 23rd, 2011, 05:14pm
Hit every gear

t
September 23rd, 2011, 05:28pm
I'm 5th through turn one, brake while going across the track, heel-toe to 4th, then 3rd at the wall, turn in and touch the rumble strip.

Temptation - brake & downshift to 4th, turn in, second braking zone & downshift to third, turn in sharper for the cone, accel out.

Beak - 4 to 3, feather throttle, wait, wait, POWWWEEERRR out

Quarry 1: take 4-left in 5th, heavy braking and a quick double downshift 5-4-3.

check out this vid for deets - you can see my feet & my hands (see if you can spot where i left-foot brake ;) ):



awesome that is Zactley what i needed to see.

i am here to learn, and this is a great forum to do so.....

cheers

t

RandomHer0
September 23rd, 2011, 05:34pm
(see if you can spot where i left-foot brake ;) ):



Stop being so good asshole.

1Morelap
September 23rd, 2011, 05:49pm
all of the above.

Mechs02
September 23rd, 2011, 05:51pm
Downshift and heel-toe through each gear when its a multi-down shift braking zone.

GIF-PWR
September 23rd, 2011, 05:58pm
Downshift and heel-toe through each gear when its a multi-down shift braking zone.

not for nothing, but that was my first reply which garnered only contempt and lollery

Jethro
September 23rd, 2011, 05:58pm
Maybe when I don't feel like I'm about to die all the time I can multi heel toe downshift too.

t
September 23rd, 2011, 06:00pm
there are some articles out there that state the more heel-toe, the greater the chance of disrupting the balance of the car....brake as much as you need and heel/toe into your final gear.......

this is why i am asking...

so far the consensus is NOPE

grassroots baby
fight the power

t

GIF-PWR
September 23rd, 2011, 06:02pm
Maybe when I don't feel like I'm about to die all the time I can multi heel toe downshift too.

practice at every stop sign till its second nature! thing about heel toe is you don't have to be driving excessively fast to practice it; the law is on your side :D

Jethro
September 23rd, 2011, 06:06pm
It's not the heel toe that I can't do. That's fine. It's the processing of multiple blips while doing 10 other things, and feeling like I might die on top like whipping cream. I got enough to worry about with hitting the braking zone etc, setting the car up, turn in, blah blah. Watch mirrors. Point by often.

I try not to overthink that shit. I'm not there yet so.... Yeah. Seat time is key.

GIF-PWR
September 23rd, 2011, 06:08pm
It's not the heel toe that I can't do. That's fine. It's the processing of multiple blips while doing 10 other things, and feeling like I might die on top like whipping cream. I got enough to worry about with hitting the braking zone etc, setting the car up, turn in, blah blah. Watch mirrors. Point by often.

I try not to overthink that shit. I'm not there yet so.... Yeah. Seat time is key.

Its probably a lot different heading towards a 4 way stop sign and taking a turn at full speed in all fairness.

RandomHer0
September 23rd, 2011, 06:11pm
^^ That.

It took alot for me to commit to heel-toe at high speeds, instead of reverting to my stab brakes/stab throttle/downshift.

A rolling stop is simple, 180-200kph is ballsy LOL

msix
September 23rd, 2011, 07:37pm
downshift through every gear, H/T each time.
Shawn, you have a 3:73 diff? your gearing/shifting seems to be exactley like mine.

You have time to do a Heel/Toe. For example, for corner 2 you have to slow down from high speed to a relative slow corner, so you are braking for about 5 seconds, the downshift you can do in 1 - 2 seconds, so you have all kinds of time to do a H/T, even twice to go through 2 gears. I like to take my time to shift up or down, pause in neutral ... have a sip on your coffee before you turn in ...

wing
September 23rd, 2011, 09:39pm
^ this lol.

The more you do it the more you realize how muchtime you have. Driving on the track there is so much time to smell the roses. I have heal and toed only once or twice in auto-x as I'm afraid to mess it up and there is no time everything is so frantic. But on the track you should be comfortable and calm, the fastest guys look like they are on a Sunday drive.

sb_915
September 23rd, 2011, 10:29pm
downshift through every gear, H/T each time.
Shawn, you have a 3:73 diff? your gearing/shifting seems to be exactley like mine.



Honestly I don't know what ratio i have - i've always thought it to be a 3.91. my top speed (with the stock redline) is around 206 km/h which seems to be consistent with a 3.91 rear end.

t - all of the above - hit every gear, use a bit of engine braking and you will get faster. Yes, at first it will be rough, but if you hit all your marks and do all your braking in a straight line, you can "afford" to make mistakes those mistakes while learning.

wing is right - heal/toe in autoX is hard (i do it but it's tough and i mess it up every now and then). on the track, take a couple laps and get used to it - maybe don't drive 10/10ths... do a few at 8 or 7, and focus on your shifting. it will pay off in the end :)

All my videos from this year are in car, so feel free to watch others from my youtube channel.

sb_915
September 23rd, 2011, 10:29pm
Stop being so good asshole.

:moon:

Mechs02
September 24th, 2011, 07:33am
There is definitely lots of time, the more youhave to downshift, the more braking you are doing, therefore the more time you have. When Random and I were discussing lines and approaches to temptation while looking at data we were showing around 7-8 seconds in braking. you should be able to get 16 heel-toe downshifts done in that time...while drinking your coffee :)


downshift through every gear, H/T each time.
Shawn, you have a 3:73 diff? your gearing/shifting seems to be exactley like mine.

You have time to do a Heel/Toe. For example, for corner 2 you have to slow down from high speed to a relative slow corner, so you are braking for about 5 seconds, the downshift you can do in 1 - 2 seconds, so you have all kinds of time to do a H/T, even twice to go through 2 gears. I like to take my time to shift up or down, pause in neutral ... have a sip on your coffee before you turn in ...

Mechs02
September 24th, 2011, 07:39am
I's day until you are good at it, and you may over or under blip the throttle there is a greater chance of disrupting the car in a manner that you wont realize till you let the clutch out, i.e. too small a blip gives engine braking weight balance shift even more forward than under regular braking, too big a blip lunges you forward and more, while getting it right you feel nothing. If you dont heel toe you will always unbalance the car.

THe only time heel toe is not as crtical is in the hard braking first down shift, if the wheel speed is dropping fast enough, faster than the engine speed would, then the braking is doing the rev matching for you.

just some thoughts... they may be all wrong :P

there are some articles out there that state the more heel-toe, the greater the chance of disrupting the balance of the car....brake as much as you need and heel/toe into your final gear.......

this is why i am asking...

so far the consensus is NOPE

grassroots baby
fight the power

t

Mechs02
September 24th, 2011, 07:41am
at least it was only your comment about driving that garnered the lollery, for me its my actual track driving! :P


not for nothing, but that was my first reply which garnered only contempt and lollery

t
September 24th, 2011, 09:46am
fixed up Turbo and took it for a short rip today.

heel'n and toe'n everywhere - neighbours not diggin me.

thanx for your comments.

anyone who wants to know how to do a quick root-canal PM me.

word

t

TTC
September 24th, 2011, 09:59am
Pew pew spends alot of seat time in racing threads with none at the track :D When you coming out sexy man?

schmoo
September 26th, 2011, 12:22pm
Jeff Graves came for a run with me last time out and I got some really good feedback on my heel-toe downshifts. He said I was easing off the brake on my throttle blips way too much and that I need to find a way to hit the throttle while keep full pressure on the pedal. I agree with him and I'm trying to figure out how to do this.

As for doing it while dropping two gears, I think I'd need a pretty big corner speed vs. straight speed to make it happen as I'm hitting the brakes at the one marker right now. I don't know how I'd squeeze two gear drops into that space!

As for practicing on the street, it only goes so far. The difference is that you're never pushing the brake pedal that hard on the street, which makes the relationship between the two pedals different enough that what you do on the street doesn't translate well to the track -- see my first paragraph.

Still, it's good fun practicing!

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 12:27pm
Pew pew spends alot of seat time in racing threads with none at the track :D When you coming out sexy man?

I don't have the $$ to track my car unfortunately; I can't just assume that I'll drive it in and leave with it still running. I only have a DD and thus, do not see myself at the track in the near future.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 12:29pm
Jeff Graves came for a run with me last time out and I got some really good feedback on my heel-toe downshifts. He said I was easing off the brake on my throttle blips way too much and that I need to find a way to hit the throttle while keep full pressure on the pedal. I agree with him and I'm trying to figure out how to do this.

big toe on brake, roll the side of your foot near the baby toe onto the throttle to produce said blip; thinner shoes make it a bit easier... just keep your big toe pressing the brake firmly the whole time.

sb_915
September 26th, 2011, 01:25pm
^easier said than done ;)

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 01:30pm
^easier said than done ;)

as are all things not regularly practiced.

That said, perhaps he was actually trying to use his HEEL and toe... virtually impossible for those born without hooves.

schmoo
September 26th, 2011, 01:47pm
LOL! Yeah much easier said than done. Did you miss the part about braking at the 1 marker -- the big toe can't, by itself, push the pedal hard enough to drop 100kph that quickly.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 01:53pm
LOL! Yeah much easier said than done. Did you miss the part about braking at the 1 marker -- the big toe can't, by itself, push the pedal hard enough to drop 100kph that quickly.

you just use the toe during the blip; the pedal should already be pressed down to where it needs to be... if ur big toe can't hold the brake for that split second, you need to work on your big toe's strength.

Ryan knows a guy who will put you on the proper diet and exercise regime.

RandomHer0
September 26th, 2011, 01:55pm
I disagree, we're talking about threshold braking.

I use the ball of my foot, and my heel.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 01:58pm
I disagree, we're talking about threshold braking.

I use the ball of my foot, and my heel.

how the hell do you manage to use your heel? I'd have to sit on my left side to turn my foot on that kind of angle...

here's what I'm saying, watch Senna heel-toe at around 0:43


http://youtu.be/8By2AEsGAhU

tellum
September 26th, 2011, 01:58pm
My feet are too big and the pedals in the Miata are set up in a way that I can't heel/toe at all.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 01:59pm
My feet are too big and the pedals in the Miata are set up in a way that I can't heel/toe at all.

they're that close together or they're too far apart?

daft_mx5
September 26th, 2011, 02:01pm
My feet are too big and the pedals in the Miata are set up in a way that I can't heel/toe at all.

Bend the gas pedal....

RandomHer0
September 26th, 2011, 02:02pm
Theres a ton of space between the brake and gas in the G35 and combine with my size 10 feet, it's more a reach for me.

If I do the foot roll, it does what Naresh is talking about, eases off the brake as Im applying gas.

Some dudes even augment their gas pedal or replace it with the 380RS.

http://www.z1auto.com/images/380rspedalinstall 001.jpg

Jethro
September 26th, 2011, 02:04pm
OMP sells a line of pedal covers that have offsets for the brake pedals to bridfenthe gap between gas and brake. and can extend the bottom of the gas pedal with a little flange on the right. Brings them closer together, has nice grippy bits on them so you don't slip.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:04pm
sadly I never tried to heel-toe on the G... but its fuckin really easy in the Civic

Mechs02
September 26th, 2011, 02:05pm
I had to widen my gas pedal on the vette to make it happen. If it doesn't line up properly, modify!

Gojira
September 26th, 2011, 02:06pm
Missed this thread (out of town for the weekend).

Heel toe (for me) is something I love practicing ALL the time when I'm in the car (even with the family in the car sometimes lol). I have dainty, petite feet and I favour driving moccassins, thin sandals or Pumas when I drive so its pretty easy to place my toe on the brake and almost the entire heel on the throttle for the blips of glory (and late braking). :D

For me:
turn 1: tap brake to set up car
turn 2: 4-3, late brake
and then 3rd gear power out all the way past easy for the long straightaway.

Pew-pew: I understand the DD thing, I'm actually contemplating selling the NSX soon and picking up a fun, cheap track car just so I won't let fear of repair bills stop me from fully enjoying the track. Someone buy my car!

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:08pm
Missed this thread (out of town for the weekend).

Heel toe (for me) is something I love practicing ALL the time when I'm in the car (even with the family in the car sometimes lol). I have dainty, petite feet and I favour driving moccassins, thin sandals or Pumas when I drive so its pretty easy to place my toe on the brake and almost the entire heel on the throttle for the blips of glory (and late braking). :D

For me:
turn 1: tap brake to set up car
turn 2: 4-3-2, late brake
and then 3rd power out all the way past easy for the long straightaway.

Pew-pew: I understand the DD thing, I'm actually contemplating selling the NSX soon and picking up a fun, cheap track car just so I won't let fear of repair bills stop me from fully enjoying the track. Someone buy my car!

trade for Civic.

Mechs02
September 26th, 2011, 02:09pm
And always brake with the the ball of my foot... under my big toe, lots of room to rock and blip. Allows me to keep even pressure on the pedal while getting the blip i need.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:10pm
And always brake with the the ball of my foot... under my big toe, lots of room to rock and blip. Allows me to keep even pressure on the pedal while getting the blip i need.

I suppose it's different for others who have different size feet, but that's exactly how I do it.

Mechs02
September 26th, 2011, 02:17pm
I guess... i have goat feet (read "hooves") and i manage to do it this way. I must say though that when i went from just wearing running shoes, to racing shoes, it changed the width enough that i starting missing my blip. Have to modify the Mustang gas pedal now.

daft_mx5
September 26th, 2011, 02:21pm
Just do it like Senna.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:23pm
I guess... i have goat feet (read "hooves") and i manage to do it this way. I must say though that when i went from just wearing running shoes, to racing shoes, it changed the width enough that i starting missing my blip. Have to modify the Mustang gas pedal now.

never tried racing shoes before, or anything but skate shoes for that matter

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:24pm
Just do it like Senna.

he's even wearing dress shoes! sarcasm aside, his method is pretty easy to reproduce with a bit of practice... it's the accuracy and consistency that is the real problem.

Gojira
September 26th, 2011, 02:24pm
Just pick up some Puma Speedcats at any hipster store anywhere. $59.99 was the best deal I ever saw at Foot Locker.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:25pm
my feet are too fat.

RandomHer0
September 26th, 2011, 02:25pm
I use skate shoes, I like them for their width.

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 02:29pm
I use skate shoes, I like them for their width.

yea I have no issue with the skate shoes; hell I don't mind flip flops.

EricVII
September 26th, 2011, 03:01pm
I use the heel and toe as Carey describes with some Puma shoes for better feel. Pedals in the Rx-7 are setup well for it.

sb_915
September 26th, 2011, 03:27pm
I kindof do a roll, but I end up using my heel too - check out my video on the first page at around 0:47, and 0:50 - brake with the ball of my foot, move heel over and roll on gas for the blip.

Mechs02
September 26th, 2011, 04:01pm
^^ this in the race car right not... i prefer the roll though.
I kindof do a roll, but I end up using my heel too - check out my video on the first page at around 0:47, and 0:50 - brake with the ball of my foot, move heel over and roll on gas for the blip.

t
September 26th, 2011, 04:16pm
so far i need...

skate shoes
faster car
flip flops
wider pedals
practice
time
skill
coordination
and balls

GIF-PWR
September 26th, 2011, 04:18pm
skate shoes are better than flip flops, of that much I am sure.

Mechs02
September 26th, 2011, 04:18pm
+ one cup of awesome.

Gojira
September 26th, 2011, 04:37pm
so far i need...

skate shoes
faster car
flip flops
wider pedals
practice
time
skill
coordination
and balls

...you don't need a faster car.

Jethro
September 26th, 2011, 04:58pm
But a generous helping of testicular fortitude is good.

Lizard King
September 26th, 2011, 05:12pm
But a generous helping of testicular fortitude is good.

++

t
September 26th, 2011, 06:03pm
gang,

on the way home i found out i could do (and was doing at CMP) 110km in 2nd gear before shifting into 3rd.

i will have to look at some sector times to see how fast y'all are doing those corners i was chatting about earlier....in 3rd gear...instead of my 2nd...comments welcome...

ps just ordered some testicular fortitude on EBAY...takes 10 business days from China...

t
September 26th, 2011, 06:04pm
...you don't need a faster car.

i don't need balls either....(4 kids).....

1Morelap
September 26th, 2011, 06:35pm
Just do it like Senna.

Jethro
September 26th, 2011, 06:44pm
i don't need balls either....(4 kids).....

Not BALLS. forticular balls.

msix
September 26th, 2011, 08:36pm
everything you ever wanted to know about shifting techniques

http://www.waycoolinc.com/z3/essentials/fixit/heeltoe/shifting.htm

... and way more you really dont want to know ...